I think we're done with 4E

[Quartz]

I've yet to play 4e but having read this thread, it seems to me that a lot of the problems of the grind could be solved by using minions. I mean, in films you see it again and again that there are very few opponents who individually give the heroes pause. You could even minionify brutes and the like by saying that instead of being killed they become bloodied, and only then can they be killed.

 

[TerraDave]

Same experience for us. It took ages before the first ritual was cast, the players said they were just too expensive for what they were (compared to previous editions).

This is interesting. One of my players used a ritual, in the first session.

If you aren't, then the game is less interesting, wizards are a lot less interesting, and you certainly do loose a good amount of "D&Disms".

Also, there are not enough rituals, I will conceded that, but more are available on DDI

 

[Lord Vangarel]

it seems to me that a lot of the problems of the grind could be solved by using minions.

Over the last month or so I started using minions in greater and greater quantities. I've also altered hp's for monsters so they drop quicker.

What initiated the discussion at the end of the last session was the players saying they had to use the same powers over and over again from one combat to another. What we'd seen was the players were almost following a sequence in their attacks as they'd worked out which was best for each given situation. Like I've said above I like the powers system I just wish they'd done it with more flexibility, more powers but make them mostly dailies.

We found that there is a grind point with the rules as they stand, so you can houserule around it or adjust hit points. I personally don't like the idea of monsters suddenly becoming minions once the decision point is reached and you can only have them runaway so many times before it becomes old.

We reached the point where we said if we have to start adjusting this much after just 6 months to get the feel we want then let's look at te alternatives available and see where we are.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

This is interesting. One of my players used a ritual, in the first session.

I agree, I tried getting them to use the rituals but they all said that for what they were they were too expensive. All the players had played 3E since it came out and two have played 2E. I started with the old red basic set. I eventually almost forced them to use a ritual by exposing them to elemental ice so thet had to use a ritual or start taking lots of damge. After this they sort of looked a bit closer at them.

 

[pawsplay]

I have always hated having two spend a small fortune every time you wanted to do something. I hated spending hundreds of gps on NPC weapon trainers. I hated the thousands of gps associated with unlocking a Weapon of Legacy. I hate 5000 gp diamonds. Not because I object to money being spent. It's just so senseless and arbitrary. 100 gp is like an entire year's income to a peasant. Has anyone noticed that in 3.5, you burn a half pound of silver to enchant a vial of holy water?

 

[Rel]

I have always hated having two spend a small fortune every time you wanted to do something.

Me too. That's why...

A casual glance told me that the cost of Rituals can add up quick. Right away I saw this as an opportunity to hand out Ritual ingredients as treasure and I'll be doing that early and often. Nope, those Demons didn't have any cash on them. But their eyeballs sure do make good Alchemical Reagents! Those carnivorous vines that attacked only had some rusty armor as treasure but fortunately their leaves count as Rare Herbs! The Evil Cleric had a magical mace, which is great! But he also had a pocket full of 400 GP worth of Sanctified Incense! Hawt!

Now another route is to give out the Rituals themselves as treasure. And that's cool but we're going to run out of Rituals in a hurry if we do much of that. There's only like 50 Rituals in the whole PHB! And only 35 of those are usable by Heroic level PC's. But what if we break some of those Rituals into smaller bits?

I'll admit that not all Rituals lend themselves hugely well to this but the Enchant Magic Item Ritual seems made for this. So here's the dealio: The cost to make a magic item from the base Ritual is 150% of the normal cost of the item. BUT, if you have the Ritual for that specific magic item then the cost is only half that (75% normal cost). That cost in either case must be paid in Ritual ingredients and those might not always be easily purchasable. But if you've been picking them up all along your travels (see above) then you've probably got a decent supply.

So, that delve into the abandoned Dwarven City might not have gotten you a ton of cash. But who cares? YOU found the lost Ritual for making Dwarven Armor! Sweet! These sorts of Rituals, or obtaining a specific ingredient required to make your Holy Avenger, may form the entire basis of some adventures.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

Me too. That's why...

Agreed, I read your post in another thread and whatever we end up playing rituals will exist and the gp cost will be replaced by components.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I have always hated having two spend a small fortune every time you wanted to do something. I hated spending hundreds of gps on NPC weapon trainers. I hated the thousands of gps associated with unlocking a Weapon of Legacy. I hate 5000 gp diamonds. Not because I object to money being spent. It's just so senseless and arbitrary. 100 gp is like an entire year's income to a peasant. Has anyone noticed that in 3.5, you burn a half pound of silver to enchant a vial of holy water?

Yes, we noticed in our group.

Maybe the only way to get away from these arbitrary cost is using the gp cost as a "background value", but instead require the use of special components. (See also Rels post)

Group these components by tier (or level range) and item type and/or skill.

For example, a quartz might be a level 3 component. It can be used to create a level 3 armor or weapon. If you have 5 of them, you can create a level 8 armor or weapon with it.

But you can't use 25 of them to get a level 13 item. The quartz is to weak for such an item. You'd need an opal for that. But that opal can't be broken down to 5 level 8 quartz or used for 5 level 8 items.

Such level ranges of worth and usability means that exchange rates aren't straightforward, since the exchange process is imprecise. If you don't need a level 13 item, the opal is either stronger or weaker then what you need, and you will lose "worth" in the process.

If you also limit their applicatibilty to types of items and rituals, you get a further constraint. Your Level 13 Opal is great for building Rings, but you actually need Mithral for your sword. So, yeah, maybe you are willing in to trade a Level 13 Opal for a Level 11 lump of Mithral Ore.

You go from currency based trade to barter. By making exchange and "change money" harder to come by, you can avoid a few issues.

Unfortunately, 4E allows the use of Residiuum and Gold Pieces. Though: If you remove Gold Pieces from the equation, and only keep Residium with it "20 % back" rule, you get a good explanation why every merchant will sell you 20 %, but nothing more. Finding a buyer for a +3 Greatsword of Flaming might be possible given enough time, but just "melting it down" to Residuum if that fails means he won't make any losses.

 

[Nebulous]

Agreed, I read your post in another thread and whatever we end up playing rituals will exist and the gp cost will be replaced by components.

Yes, i added ritual components as treasure in the last session of Keep on the Shadowfell.

I'm tinkering with some house rules to make Rituals cast much quicker, although i'm sure someone will make this official down the road in the next few years.

Anyway, my idea was for the caster to spend the money and time early and save the last part of the ritual as the Standard action to finish it. It would probably take up a significant slot, or maybe several rituals can be queued up in place of a Daily spell.

Alternatively, maybe rituals can be cast faster but drastically reduced in duration or effectiveness.

 

[scarik]

I do two things.

I give out Ritual Components as treasure as others do.

Ritual Scrolls cost the same as a using a Ritual once to prepare. If you have mastered the Ritual on the scroll it casts as a Standard Action. Otherwise use the normal rules.

So the Wizard has a Scroll of Arcane Lock that he prepared. Suddenly the portcullis with the 5 Dire Bears behind it starts to raise up, the Wizard pulls out his scroll (minor action) runs over closer to the portcullis (move) and then speaks the final word of the ritual to activate the scroll's magic. The portcullis slams shut and stays shut.

If the Ritual requires a roll then make it when the Ritual is cast not when the scroll is prepared.