Solving the minion problem: Waves!

[Vayden]

Exactly. Minions are great cinematically, but not actually all that significant against any group with a decent amount of area attacks. Depending on the scene I'm trying to set up for the PCs, I may throw an entire encounter's worth of minions at them in addition to the normal encounter.

To be honest though, I've completely stopped paying attention to the XP budgets in most cases. I've got a good feel for my group's capabilities, and I just browse around for a collection of monsters that feels right at this point. I'll also frequently use the DMG guides to levelling monsters up and down if I find a monster I like that's outside their level range, and of course I re-skin monsters at the drop of a hat.* I'll also frequently adjust monster hitpoints down mid-combat if I initially set it up too hard, and will summon "reinforcements" of new waves of some of the monsters if I made it too easy. It's all about working it on the fly. Calculating the XP doesn't matter because we threw that convention out once 4th Ed showed up - now the party are always the same level, and they level up whenever it's appropriate for the story (usually after they finish a mini-arc or pull off something particularly cool).

It's not "by the book", but it's working pretty well.

*One of my favorite level-down/re-skins was when they were 5th level and had reached the final room of a ruined monastery they were clearing a tribe of goblins out of. I wanted to have the final, locked room populated by the ghosts of the past abbots of the monastery - looking around, I found the Berbalang (10th level solo skirmisher) - I levelled him down to 8th, turned him and his duplicates into the ghosts of old monks, threw on a quick resist 10 necrotic, and turned him loose. At various points, every single member of the party was bloodied, and 3 of the 5 dropped unconscious at least once, but they pulled through in a fierce melee. 'Twas quite fun.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I don't think that this problem is as big as it's being made out to be. There aren't that many auto-damage abilities in the game, and many are dailies.

Take the Fighter, for example. He has several stances that allow him to have an auto-damage burst 1 around him, all of which are dailies. So for starters, he's already blowing a daily to attack minions...if he wasn't using Reaping Stance then he could be using Supremacy of Steel (6[W] damage, and target can only make melee basic attacks until the end of your next turn...see how your Dragon likes that one! ). Secondly, he's using a stance, which means he can't use another stance at the same time. There are a TON of useful stances, especially in Martial Power. Stances that grant regeneration, extra healing, extra saves, the ability to do more damage with At-Wills, etc... So your Fighter is giving all that up to carry auto-damage stances for every encounter, and you say your minions aren't doing anything?

Even with the Wizard, the same is true. So what if Burning Sphere can autokill Epic Tier minions? It's a level 1 daily and he's using it in Epic? When he could be using Necrotic Web or Prismatic Spray? Those are devastating powers that he'd be giving up on to get another auto-damage effect. Those are also powers that only do damage on a hit, which means that he only has a 50% chance of connecting (well, Prismatic Spray is a bit different...but you get the point).

Even if they're burning up Encounter powers that have bursts or area attacks, they only have 4 plus their racials if they have any. Each Encounter power burned up is less resources for the party to throw at the enemy, and it's another power dedicated to an AoE effect versus a single target. You minions are doing their job, your just not seeing it.

Just as an experiment, try this: Send your party up against 3 encounters. One will be a normal encounter, another will be against an entire encounter's worth of minions coming in waves, and the last will be against an enemy group with no minions. See what they have the most trouble against. I would bet that they would a lot of trouble with each of the non-standard parties, because they're optimized for taking down a couple enemies worth of minions and then mopping up the rest of the "real" enemies. Against just a few "real enemies" their AoE's and auto-damage powers won't help much, and against droves of minions they'll quickly run out of those daily auto-damage powers.

 

[-Avalon-]

Well, so far the true "minion-killer" in our group is the swordmage... his at-wills give him a couple attacks that cause devestation to any minions trying to buddy up...

My tactic against this is staggering, using 2 minion clusters, so that the most he kills with one attack is 2 minions, and in some odd cases, 4.

but the swordmage appears to be pretty broken so far in our games. Not exceptionally broken, but still a lil broken.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Well, so far the true "minion-killer" in our group is the swordmage... his at-wills give him a couple attacks that cause devestation to any minions trying to buddy up...

My tactic against this is staggering, using 2 minion clusters, so that the most he kills with one attack is 2 minions, and in some odd cases, 4.

but the swordmage appears to be pretty broken so far in our games. Not exceptionally broken, but still a lil broken.

Again though, this doesn't mean your minions are failing at their job. A Swordmage is sort of a weak defender, and he's not doing a good job defending if he's using At-Wills to kill minions. Throw a couple soldiers at him and have your minions attack him from range. Or throw the minions at him like you are now, and then have some soldiers slip past him while he's otherwise busy and go after the squishies.

 

[Bleoberis De Ganis]

How about linking minion spawning to the main baddie in an encounter. As long as that boss is around the minions keep piling in - slowly.

Whatever you do the PCs should get proper XP for every minion killed - not just for the first wave.

 

[-Avalon-]

Again though, this doesn't mean your minions are failing at their job. A Swordmage is sort of a weak defender, and he's not doing a good job defending if he's using At-Wills to kill minions. Throw a couple soldiers at him and have your minions attack him from range. Or throw the minions at him like you are now, and then have some soldiers slip past him while he's otherwise busy and go after the squishies.

All great in theory, but 1st round goes: All minions die.
2nd round: start on other stuff

There is no period in time to "sneak" around them. I have tried putting 12-16 minions into a fight. By end of rd 2, all are dead.

Needless to say, my minions have been much more useful when I made change to the goblin cutter (gave them shurikens), or use waves... That way I let the party think they are in a slightly easy encounter, they do their normal kill all minions and move to real mobs, then a rd or 2 later a new group shows up with a real mob or two to help out, and they end up being entrenched in their own fights by then, and minions can move around freely =)

Swordmage: reason they are slightly broken- their AOE at-wills do NOT damage any friends, only foes...

 

[Doctor Proctor]

All great in theory, but 1st round goes: All minions die.
2nd round: start on other stuff

There is no period in time to "sneak" around them. I have tried putting 12-16 minions into a fight. By end of rd 2, all are dead.

Okay, I don't play FR, so I only the basic concept of what swordmages do. So can you explain how a swordmage can hit and kill 12-16 minions in 2 rounds with At-Wills? A regular Wizard couldn't even do that with Scorching Burst unless he had a godly hit stat and they were packed like sardines.

 

[Mistwell]

I do not think there is a minion problem.

But, I do think if you feel the need to "fix" it, then you are reducing the power of the controller. It's one of the few things a controller does well, and you are decreasing their ability to do that thing well.

So you should give controllers something to compensate for this loss of power. I am not sure what that thing is (again, because I disagree that this is a problem), but it should be something. Maybe give them the power to cast some rituals as a standard action or something?

 

[James McMurray]

Take the Fighter, for example. He has several stances that allow him to have an auto-damage burst 1 around him, all of which are dailies. So for starters, he's already blowing a daily to attack minions...if he wasn't using Reaping Stance then he could be using Supremacy of Steel (6[W] damage, and target can only make melee basic attacks until the end of your next turn...see how your Dragon likes that one!

Reaping Stance, in terms of damage, will outperform supremacy of Steel in most encounters, as it will do much more than 6[W] (it does 1[W] + 10) minimum, more if your dex mod is high (and you won't have it if it isn't). Reaper's Stance is a bad example though, because as stances go it's among the worst. The extra crit range won't matter, because you'll already have that from a feat.

Secondly, he's using a stance, which means he can't use another stance at the same time. There are a TON of useful stances, especially in Martial Power. Stances that grant regeneration, extra healing, extra saves, the ability to do more damage with At-Wills, etc... So your Fighter is giving all that up to carry auto-damage stances for every encounter, and you say your minions aren't doing anything?

Who said anything about autodamage stances every encounter? It's a strange campaign that includes minions in every fight. But speaking of regen, how about Unyielding Avalanche, which gives regen, defenses, save bonuses, and enemy control?

The problem is not that the fighter can autokill minions with his stances. If thats all the stance did it would be fine. The problem is that stances which are great against normal monsters are insane against minions, and make the inclusion of non-artillery minions the equivilent of saying "here ya go, have some free xp."

Even with the Wizard, the same is true. So what if Burning Sphere can autokill Epic Tier minions? It's a level 1 daily and he's using it in Epic? When he could be using Necrotic Web or Prismatic Spray? Those are devastating powers that he'd be giving up on to get another auto-damage effect. Those are also powers that only do damage on a hit, which means that he only has a 50% chance of connecting (well, Prismatic Spray is a bit different...but you get the point).

Make an epic level Blood Mage / Archmage and tally up your Flaming Sphere damage over the course of a day. Even without factoring in minions the average sphere damage per round is 13.5 + implement * the number of creatures you can put it next to with your move action. It's only a waste of time if you actually start attacking with it (unless you got a high roll on your bolstering blood)

Even if they're burning up Encounter powers that have bursts or area attacks, they only have 4 plus their racials if they have any. Each Encounter power burned up is less resources for the party to throw at the enemy, and it's another power dedicated to an AoE effect versus a single target. You minions are doing their job, your just not seeing it.

Scenario 1) An encounter burst is used against two normal monsters. It deals 20 damage, which is 1/4 of the monster's hit points. He is 1/4 of the way to ending their threat and has had no effect on their damage output.

Scenario 2) The burst hits 4 of the 8 minions. They all die. He is halfway to ending the threat and has halved the damage output.

Minions are not worth 1/4 of a standard monster, at least not if they ever get anywhere near each other.

Just as an experiment, try this: Send your party up against 3 encounters. One will be a normal encounter, another will be against an entire encounter's worth of minions coming in waves, and the last will be against an enemy group with no minions. See what they have the most trouble against. I would bet that they would a lot of trouble with each of the non-standard parties, because they're optimized for taking down a couple enemies worth of minions and then mopping up the rest of the "real" enemies. Against just a few "real enemies" their AoE's and auto-damage powers won't help much, and against droves of minions they'll quickly run out of those daily auto-damage powers.

I've had a lot more than 3 fights like that in my epic game, except for the nothing but minions scenario. Minions, prior to my house rule, had practically 0 effect on the fights. Powers that are good against normal monsters (like autodamage stances, come and get it, and bursts) are instant death to minions. the players are not optimized to handle any specific type of threat. The fighter has come and get it and unyielding avalanche so he can keep normal, elites, and solos stuck to him. When he uses them around minions it's gravy, not some sort of loss. The wizard has area bursts with status effects so he can control standard, elites, and solos. When he uses them against minions it's gravy, not some kind of loss.

Have you done your own proposed experiment? Try it out. You may be surprised. The so-called "opportunity cost" to kill minions doesn't exist, because you're using the same powers, the same actions, and lowering the threat level of the encounter more than they'd have done if those 4 minions had been a single monster capable of surviving the attack.

Note: this is not as true at lower levels. Flaming Sphere and the "enemies only" nukes are among the few things that are very strong at crossing the minion / standard monster divide. And those aren't prolific enough to be a major hassle. In the heroic tier minions are worth at least 1/4 of a standard for a typical party build. They could be worth more than that if you lack a controller, your leader isn't a cleric, and/or they're given ranged weapons.

 

[James McMurray]

What I find myself wishing WotC had done with minions is to not go with a simple 1:4 ratio. Instead measure each minion's worth individually. A minion with resist all 10 would be able to survive a lot of auto damage, and would be worth more than 1/4. A minion with artillery could keep from being bunched up and so be worth 1/4 or more. Melee minions with standard defenses and no special powers would be 1/4 at heroic, 1/6 at paragon, and 1/8 at epic. Minions that explode when they die are more likely to get in at least one hit, so they'd be worth more. And so on.

It would mean more book keeping and playtesting, but even the designers have said that minions need work at higher levels (Mearls IIRC, but I can't find the interview).