Dragon 370 - Design & Development: Cosmology

[The Little Raven]

What's so horrible about the fact that it serves only as an origin for creatures that get summoned to the regular world?

Because I want my books to be full of material I can use in a game, not descriptions of places my players cannot and will not go. Having several different variants of "GO HERE AND YOU DIE" with palette swaps for the elements is useless to me, because I'm concerned with campaign-building, not universe-building.

 

[Drkfathr1]

Because I want my books to be full of material I can use in a game, not descriptions of places my players cannot and will not go. Having several different variants of "GO HERE AND YOU DIE" with palette swaps for the elements is useless to me, because I'm concerned with campaign-building, not universe-building.

It's a total fallacy to think that this is what any prior edition of D&D did. The original 1 ED Manual of the Planes gave you what you wanted with areas of each elemental plane that had pockets of other elements...thus providing you with the dungeons you'd want, without having to turn the entire plane into one big "slightly different but comfortable" finite dungeon.

That's the beauty of an infinite plane.

We both get what we want.

 

[Stoat]

If you're adventuring there, you're in the City of Brass, which is populated by efreeti who cast spells and wield swords, and also cool enough that it's tolerable for non-fire-immune PCs.

Your point is well taken. I was thinking more of PC's wandering about in the less civilized portions of the plane.

Looks like we are split into people who think all places are exploring ground and people who think some places work just fine as background.

So it seems. My preference is certainly for material that the PC's can interact with directly. I would not buy a Manual of the Planes that was primarily background. I prefer the Inner Planes (or Elemental Chaos, or whatever) to be places where staunch heroes might dare to venture.

It also seems that if a plane is just going to be background, it doesn't need too much detail. "Knowledge Arcane DC: 20 -- Fire Elementals hail from the Plane of Fire, an infinite expanse of blazing flame where mortals cannot hope to survive." If you aren't going there, how much information do you need about it?

 

[avin]

So, how do you use the planes of fire in your game?

Planes of Fire are the bornplace of most creatures related to fire. Their gods live there.

So far, no player of mine wanted do adventure there, but they often are in places where boards of one plane touches other, so they can walk around fire instead of just burn. Kinda like 1E used to be...

Isn't much like Elemental Chaos should be? A place where people can adventure? I didn't killed the plane and used that concept far before 4E.

So is that Elemental Plane that important? Of course it is (to me). A noble salamander chased by a party fled to the Elemental Plane of Fire (dice never lie) and folks needed to find another way to get what they need that time.

More than fleeing to a volcano, that was his Plane of origin, a place of Power to him, and my players decided to avoid the "let's use protection from fire" way. It's a matter of not trivializing everything.

I see that people keep saying they don't want places where people will never go on the books and I find it very very weird and intriguing.

 

[The Little Raven]

It's a total fallacy to think that this is what any prior edition of D&D did.

No, it's not. The majority of previous MotPs were useless to me in terms of out-of-the-book usable content. You can't tell me that my personal experience in my own games is a fallacy, friend.

The original 1 ED Manual of the Planes gave you what you wanted with areas of each elemental plane that had pockets of other elements...thus providing you with the dungeons you'd want, without having to turn the entire plane into one big "slightly different but comfortable" finite dungeon.

Yes, it gave me small areas, while the rest of that plane was an endless sheet of fire that is worthless to me and the games I run.

That's the beauty of an infinite plane.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and this beholder finds it ugly as hell.

We both get what we want.

No, because I would still have a book with a ton of stuff that is useless to me. That's not me getting what I want.

 

[Zil]

Every place has to be a "dungeon" it seems. I never found the Good-aligned planes boring; neither did my players (1e, 2e, 3.x). Maybe we're in the minority here, who knows.

The Good aligned planes certainly did not have to be boring. I used them quite extensively in the 3E era of my long running Planescape game. In fact, my players spent quite some time on Mount Celestia and Bytopia and they never once complained about those planes being boring.

However, if you go into game adventure design and decide in advance that plane X is monolithically boring or lethal, then you've already trapped yourself in a somewhat limited creative box.

 

[I'm A Banana]

FWIW, with a lot of the questions, I see it as a continuum.

Were demons and devils the same? Not really. Is it still cool to make them more different? Yes.

Were the good planes boring? My campaigns say otherwise. Is it still cool to make them more exciting? Heck yeah.

So I'm supportive of the design team's efforts there.

I guess with the 4e changes from "Planes of Instant Ouch" to "Planes to Adventure In," I'm just an unabashed fan. Awesome alien places to send my heroes without the need for high-magic weirdness is neat, and I'm glad 4e supports this more. Could they have preserved the original energy-like planes, too? Sure, they could've. But if it just boils down to fluff, what's the big deal?

I guess the main question with that is: what about these inhospitable planes was appealing to you when you were playing the game or designing the world? Why did you like a Plane of Only Fire? How was it useful to you? What did you do with it? And what can't you do with it now that it's a Plane of Elemental Chaos that you could do with it then?

Yes, it gave me small areas, while the rest of that plane was an endless sheet of fire that is worthless to me and the games I run.
...
No, because I would still have a book with a ton of stuff that is useless to me. That's not me getting what I want

Well, on the first point, people seem to be saying that it's OK to have places in existence where the PC's can never really go (unless the plot calls for them to and thus gives them Plot Immunity vs. that place). It's OK to have a big empty field of fire because the PC's don't need to go there unless they're being burned by their enemies (in which case, all it needs to do is damage).

On the second point, because those planes aren't meant to be adventured in, you don't need a lot of stuff about them. You could just have an entry like:

Plane of Fire: This plane is inhospitable to most mortal life. It kills creatures not completely immune to fire. Its only inhabitants are rumored to be creatures made of and immune to fire who see it as a paradise.

And then move on to the more interesting places.

 

[Drkfathr1]

No, it's not. The majority of previous MotPs were useless to me in terms of out-of-the-book usable content. You can't tell me that my personal experience in my own games is a fallacy, friend.



Yes, it gave me small areas, while the rest of that plane was an endless sheet of fire that is worthless to me and the games I run.



Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and this beholder finds it ugly as hell.



No, because I would still have a book with a ton of stuff that is useless to me. That's not me getting what I want.

Wow, somehow I get the feeling you don't really think of me as a friend.

The fallacy, my fellow gamer, is that any book told you that "you can't go here in any form or fashion or you will die." That's simple truth, not something subjective.

I really find it hard to believe that you would want your players to explore the ENTIRE plane of fire. I get the sneaking feeling that you just want to argue in that regard.

And just so I'm clear, you're saying that an infinite plane, that gives you the areas you can use in your game, and areas I can use and not use in my game, is useless to you?

Once again, I get the feeling you just want to argue.

 

[avin]

Yes, it gave me small areas, while the rest of that plane was an endless sheet of fire that is worthless to me and the games I run.

I lost you.

The planes are infinite, so how can you guys say it's "small areas"?

This areas can be the size you want to be.

 

[avin]

On the second point, because those planes aren't meant to be adventured in, you don't need a lot of stuff about them. You could just have an entry like:

Plane of Fire: This plane is inhospitable to most mortal life. It kills creatures not completely immune to fire. Its only inhabitants are rumored to be creatures made of and immune to fire who see it as a paradise.

And then move on to the more interesting places.

There you go: QFT.