Dragon 370 - Design & Development: Cosmology

[ki11erDM]

Found your problem,

I'm talking logic

You have to remember that: enworld=(D&D + internet)/rules lawyers
And logic is completely void from that equation.

 

[Mouseferatu]

No, the Great Wheel was not used for Dragonlance in 1E, nor was it used for Dragonlance in 2E or Darksun in 2E.

Originally, Krynn had its own cosmology. I think Planescape tried to include it later on, but as I'm not sure if I remember that right, 'll give you that one.

Athas, however, technically existed within the Great Wheel--it was just isolated by various "dimensional walls." (That's why there was an Athas-based domain in some of the latter 2E Ravenloft products.)

 

[El Mahdi]

I forgot about Krynn; I'll give you that one.

Athas, however, technically existed within the Great Wheel--it was just isolated by various "dimensional walls." (That's why there was an Athas-based domain in some of the latter 2E Ravenloft products.)

I believe it was also possible, albeit extremely difficult, to reach it by Spelljamming through the Phlogiston (but I think the currents, or somesuch, makes it nearly impossible, and even more difficult to sail away from Darksun).

 

[Shemeska]

Originally, Krynn had its own cosmology. I think Planescape tried to include it later on, but as I'm not sure if I remember that right, 'll give you that one.

The original Dragonlance Adventures includes the names of a number of planar locations associated with Krynn's gods, but it doesn't establish and detail any sort of distinct cosmology. Still during 1e [Edit: in the same year even], the original Manual of the Planes established that Krynn was within the Great Wheel cosmology. Planescape continued with that assumption during 2e, but it didn't originate it.

 

[M.L. Martin]

Originally, Krynn had its own cosmology. I think Planescape tried to include it later on, but as I'm not sure if I remember that right, 'll give you that one.

Krynn had its own distinct cosmology in DRAGONLANCE Adventures . . . and was included in the Great Wheel in the 1E Manual of the Planes. Basically, Weis & Hickman said 'no, DL is independent', while TSR staff tended to say 'yes, DL is part of the D&D multiverse'.

Athas, however, technically existed within the Great Wheel--it was just isolated by various "dimensional walls." (That's why there was an Athas-based domain in some of the latter 2E Ravenloft products.)

I'd call Forbidden Lore (November 1992, the first product in which Kalidnay appeared) 'early 2nd edition', myself, and William W. Connors has van Richten mention Athas in an introduction to a DRAGON article in #174 (October 1991). Granted, the good Doctor also refers to the setting as 'Ravenloft' in-character there . . .

 

[M.L. Martin]

The original Dragonlance Adventures includes the names of a number of planar locations associated with Krynn's gods, but it doesn't establish and detail any sort of distinct cosmology. Several years later, and still during 1e, the original Manual of the Planes established that Krynn was within the Great Wheel cosmology. Planescape continued with that assumption during 2e, but it didn't originate it.

Actually, if memory serves me correctly, the Manual of the Planes came out in the same year as DLA. Let me check . . . Ah, yes. According to RPG.net's game index, both of them were 1987 releases.

 

[Shemeska]

My copy of the Inner Planes says that unprotected characters take 6d10 fire damage each round and another 1d10 from breathing the super heated air. Sounds like instant fiery death to me.

You know what, it's a hostile environment. That means that adventurers need to prepare for that challenge. It's no different than having an angry dragon lairing on a mountain the PCs are quested to adventure on - the dragon will attack intruders so oh no should we remove the dragon because it makes that mountain less friendly to adventure in? Or should we remove the kobolds from the dungeon because they make the dungeon hostile with their devious traps? Of course not. Nor should we turn on the air conditioning in the landscape surrounding the City of Brass, or snuff the flames of Phlegethon, or force the ice devils of Cania to provide hot cocoa to chilly travelers. Some places on the planes are difficult, so are places like Undermountain and Castle Grayhawk, but that doesn't stop any of them from having been the location of many of D&D's most awesome and challenging adventures for the decades prior to 4e fixing everything and making all those places no longer suck as they seem to want folks to believe.

Apparently I'm in a mood for hyperbole tonight.

It's a challenge for PCs to overcome in all cases. Some places are more dangerous than others, and rather than water them down, it seems right for PCs to know when they can take that challenge, and then enjoy their success when they've earned it by overcoming that difficulty.

 

[Sir Brennen]

It's a challenge for PCs to overcome in all cases. Some places are more dangerous than others, and rather than water them down, it seems right for PCs to know when they can take that challenge, and then enjoy their success when they've earned it by overcoming that difficulty.

To me a challenge is an encounter PCs have to struggle and think their way through, or at least make lots of prayers to the dice gods.

Checking off the spell on your list to give the party fire resistance before you step onto the plane doesn't feel like much of a challenge to me. It's just common sense, especially given the mono-elemental nature of the Inner Planes.

In the Elemental Chaos, players don't know what to expect, because at any moment they could be hit with anything. All manner of elemental creatures are about, sometimes composed of a mix of elements. And it's the Elemental Chaos... they could be fighting those creatures while trapped on a slab of earth circling a lava whirlpool during a raging ice storm with red lightning crashing around them.

Now that's a challenge.

 

[Staffan]

No, the Great Wheel was not used for Dragonlance in 1E, nor was it used for Dragonlance in 2E or Darksun in 2E.

For most of the setting's life, Dark Sun was just as connected to the Wheel as any other setting, though it was de-emphasised. Even so, you had Dragon Kings (one of the first books for the setting) refer to the Inner planes, the Black Spine adventure had an invasion of Githyanki (and assorted other planar stuff), City by the Silt Sea had a psionic mirror that could be used for planar travel, and The Will and The Way had psychoportation powers used for connecting to both inner and outer planes. I also recall seeing references to Dark Sun in a Planescape book or two (probably In the Cage and/or Planewalker's Handbook).

It wasn't until one of the product lines last sourcebooks, Defilers & Preservers (1996, one of three books released in the product line's last year), that the concept of the Grey blocking planar travel showed up. It was still part of the Wheel cosmology, it was just hard to get there.

It was officially off the grid from Spelljamming since 1992 though, when (IIRC) the Complete Spacefarer's Handbook mentioned that the sphere with Athas in it was not on any known space charts, or something like that.

 

[Shemeska]

Now that's a challenge.

Which I could already get in Limbo, without having to deny myself the Elemental Planes as well.