3rd Party Poopers

[Rechan]

During 3e, I bought quite a bit of 3rd party materials. When I went with 4e, I traded a lot of the 3rd party stuff in.

Now that 4e is out, some 3rd party stuff is slowly rolling out. And I find myself in a situation that happened before: Lots of cool options out there... that DMs and/or Players won't use.

As a DM, I present these options to players, and they're more inclined to go for the Core rules (either because they're min-maxers, care more about their character than the rules themselves, or have vanilla gaming tastes), or might nudge some WotC splat.

As a Player, I more often than not find DMs who want just Core only, or even if they allow other options, will allow a few splats. 3rd party stuff? That's broken, or doesn't fit their game, or they just don't own the book.

So, I end up with a player-focused product that I can neither get my players to use, nor get to play myself.

Anyone else find themselves in the same problem?

Note: Be aware I'm not just talking about "The Quintessential Guide to Maxed Out Stats", but just eccentric things, like Dream magic or Tarot magic, odd races, or different character builds. The mechanics don't matter as much to me as the idea and the potential.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Can't people give DMs a break occasionally?

I've hardly had any experience with 4e, and it's all as a DM. I've literally never been able to play it yet. If a player brings me a 3PP they'll get a big fat no. Until I get some good experience with the system, and am able to judge things like balance for myself, the answer will remain no.

A 3PP that fills in a desperate need (eg a big gap in the system) might get a yes, though. However, it has to do it right. (Just because there's no monk class in the core rules doesn't mean I'll let in a 3PP monk product. It not only has to be balanced, it has to avoid pigeon-holing, excessive use of ki, has to be a striker, etc.)

There's likely to be enough cheese coming from WotC anyway (and I'm not yet qualified to tell the difference).

 

[Rechan]

Can't people give DMs a break occasionally?[/quote

I've hardly had any experience with 4e, and it's all as a DM. I've literally never been able to play it yet.

Hey. The only 4e player experience I have had is pre-release demo games and one or two one-shot games on Maptools. I am the only guy willing to DM around in person or to any length. (And I've played even less in 3e).

I'd rather push some homebrew and 3PP stuff on my players, as opposed to several things in the Core. But, they ain't swallowing.

 

[Rechan]

But this isn't about 4e. This is about (in general) not getting to use your 3rd party stuff, whatever edition you're using.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Hey. The only 4e player experience I have had is pre-release demo games and one or two one-shot games on Maptools. I am the only guy willing to DM around in person or to any length. (And I've played even less in 3e).

I'd rather push some homebrew and 3PP stuff on my players, as opposed to several things in the Core. But, they ain't swallowing.

Kudos to you for having a brain still willing to accept change

Perhaps your players want more experience? It's hard enough absorbing all these new rules without being given a bigger plate.

I'll do the hated thing (hell, I hate it) and bring up WoW as an example. Last year, Blizzard attended the Game Developer Conference and explained some bits about WoW game design. (Note: I do not play WoW and only looked at the thing since I'm a StarCraft II fanatic.)

One of the things they said to avoid was "too many buckets" eg too many options. Since they've made pretty much the most successful video game ever (is there an objective judge of that?) they might be on the right track.

New post: In 3e, I quickly became quite "down" on 3PP and only used them when there was a clear hole in the rules. This was true both as a DM and as a player. Sometimes (as a player) I just proposed a new house rule. I once or twice played a ranger in 3.5 that was basically the 3.5 ranger crossed with a 3.0 non-magic alt ranger (the Iron Kingdoms variant) and the 3.0 Midnight variant that worked well, after presenting it to the DM; this was easier than using a big chunk of 3PP rules or finding something that suited me perfectly.

 

[Mark]

So, I end up with a player-focused product that I can neither get my players to use, nor get to play myself.

Anyone else find themselves in the same problem?

Just utilize some of the options with NPCs (who do not necessarily need to be adversaries of the PCs). It'll get some of the cool aspects into the game and the players might even wind up wanting to have such abilities themselves. Also, it can add a new dimension to the game to which the players will not have early access, thus creating some new surprises that even the most learned players will not have had the chance to read in advance.

 

[Ranger REG]

Anyone else find themselves in the same problem?

No problem, at least for 3e/d20.

I always like surprising my players with new things once in a while, just to keep them off-balance. I don't like my game to become monotonous because the players have memorized the entire Monster Manual collection or got the standard D&D magic system pat down, and so forth.

After all, what's the use of adventuring when you're not willing to explore the unknown or the unexplained?

 

[Rechan]

No problem, at least for 3e/d20.

I always like surprising my players with new things once in a while, just to keep them off-balance.

Well hell, even if you've memorized the MM, re-skinning is always useful.

 

[Jack99]

But this isn't about 4e. This is about (in general) not getting to use your 3rd party stuff, whatever edition you're using.

Just out of curiosity, which products are you trying to implement?

Myself I have only introduced the APG (the OBE stuff won't be introduced until they "open up" more of the campaign world), but so far, no takers. Then again, no one has died since I allowed the books, so that might explain something.

 

[Rechan]

Just out of curiosity, which products are you trying to implement?

Myself I have only introduced the APG (the OBE stuff won't be introduced until they "open up" more of the campaign world), but so far, no takers. Then again, no one has died since I allowed the books, so that might explain something.

OBE races, a Kenku race from the Fan forums, and I am actually very interested in Venture 4th's Warlock pacts (the Angelic and Vermin pacts).

[sblock]Among other things, I would love to just rip out a lot of core stuff. Namely Elves/Eladrin/Dwarves/Halflings, replace them with other races, from other WotC products/Homebrew/3pp races. But I have this very strong feeling that most gamers would balk at not getting to play the Standby Demi-Humans, or would just go with Human out of protest.[/sblock]
But this is also something I felt was happening in 3e. You know, having "RElics and Rituals", tons of books on spells, Mongoose's series on magic (Demonologist, Necromancer, Shaman), a book on "Blight Magic"... I'm wary that I might fall into the same trap of buying a lot of things for 4e I end up never getting to use, and wonder if others have experienced/are worried about the same thing.