3rd Party Poopers

[Jack99]

OBE races, a Kenku race from the Fan forums, and I am actually very interested in Venture 4th's Warlock pacts (the Angelic and Vermin pacts).

I'm wary that I might fall into the same trap of buying a lot of things for 4e I end up never getting to use, and wonder if others have experienced/are worried about the same thing.

Well, I buy quite a lot of the 3PP stuff as well, although some companies are already on my personal do-not-buy-list, I will certainly end up having a lot of stuff that will never get used.

One thing to consider though, is that at first, everyone wants to try out the core stuff. As the first campaign (or first character) becomes the 10th, people often grow tired of the same old stuff, and therefore more interested in trying some different things.

I guess my only advice is to be patient.

 

[Jack99]

On a sidenote, which angelic warlock path are you talking about?

 

[Betote]

I'm a "core-only" DM myself. Well, almost. The only splats I consistently used as a DM were the Spell Compendium, Player's Handbook II and the Bookf of Iron MIght.

What I did use a lot from 3PP as a DM were adventures and monsters.

 

[Rechan]

On a sidenote, which angelic warlock path are you talking about?

See this post.http://www.enworld.org/forum/publis...enture-4th-pact-vermin-lords.html#post4589856

 

[ruemere]

[...]3rd party stuff? That's broken, or doesn't fit their game, or they just don't own the book.

So, I end up with a player-focused product that I can neither get my players to use, nor get to play myself.

Anyone else find themselves in the same problem? [...]

Many a time. Though, because of policies implemented in my campaigns, this does not happen often.

Rule #1: The rules and books we play by: ... (usually only core plus core setting books, information presented to players during character creation).

Rule #2: Here are the special rules for this campaign: ... (exceptions and clarifications to rule #1, information presented to players during character creation).

Rule #3: If any player wants something to be added, they must bring it personally to GM's attention and then properly analyze it with GM. It's a good test of player's maturity and rule/balance awareness, too.

Rule #4: Narrative adjustment. If there is something bothering GM or player during the course of the campaign, a narrative adjustment may retcon or expand portion of rules or story. Alternatively, narrative adjustments are also used to reward PCs for exceptional feats and roleplaying.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Jack99]

See this post.http://www.enworld.org/forum/publis...enture-4th-pact-vermin-lords.html#post4589856

Thanks. Looks interesting. Haven't had the time to read through the Vermin Pact yet, but thematically, it sounds cool. I just hope their crunch is at par with their fluff (IME the biggest problem with 3PP's so far)

 

[Stormborn]

In my experiance 3PP is easiest to implement when its modular. A new class, race, feat, or spell is an easy thing for a player to use while for a DM any of those plus new monsters, traps, or items are great. However when it comes to entire new magic systems thigns get more difficult. The same is true with WotC's alternate magic systems. I have used both a Binder and an Incarnum using NPC as a DM, but they were just around for a single adventure. Part of this is because incorporating new things into an ongoing campaign is difficult.
A new magic system would, in most cases, require incorporation from the begining to be implimented effectivly.

 

[timbannock]

In my experiance 3PP is easiest to implement when its modular. A new class, race, feat, or spell is an easy thing for a player to use while for a DM any of those plus new monsters, traps, or items are great. However when it comes to entire new magic systems thigns get more difficult. The same is true with WotC's alternate magic systems. I have used both a Binder and an Incarnum using NPC as a DM, but they were just around for a single adventure. Part of this is because incorporating new things into an ongoing campaign is difficult.
A new magic system would, in most cases, require incorporation from the begining to be implimented effectivly.

Agreed. Modular is good.

I learned from the mistakes of 3E/D20/Glut. I realized that all the cool stuff that wasn't in the Core was either setting specific (i.e., I had to make it relevant for the Players to even glance at it), or probably didn't need to be there at all...I could just hand-wave the whole thing as long as I kept an eye on balance.

In short, for 4E, because I DM 99% of the time, I'm just not buying splats and "player-focused" books. The Players can do that. I'm going to buy books that will help me as a DM (monster books, adventures) and make up whatever else I need.

That said, if a Player says "I wanna use this 3PP book!" I'll definitely take a look at it, check out the reviews on the content in play, and then make a decision. I'm pretty freewheeling...I got backlash for saying "No" after I'd already said "Yes" once, and I quickly realized that for all the issues I had with the balance of the book (Exalted Deeds, a WOTC book, by the way), I was still the DM, and I could make up something that did the same amount of ludicrously unbalanced damage to the PCs

 

[Aeolius]

As a Player, I more often than not find DMs who want just Core only, or even if they allow other options, will allow a few splats. 3rd party stuff? That's broken, or doesn't fit their game, or they just don't own the book.

To be fair, a DM does not have to allow the use of a supplement he or she does not own. If you want to use a third party product, either ask the DM which they allow beforehand, or buy a second copy for your DM.

Note: Be aware I'm not just talking about "The Quintessential Guide to Maxed Out Stats", but just eccentric things, like Dream magic or Tarot magic, odd races, or different character builds. The mechanics don't matter as much to me as the idea and the potential.

To be fair, I run an undersea 3.5e campaign that does not allow the use of core races for player use. PCs must have a swim speed and be able to breathe underwater without the use of magic. I also enjoy creating new monsters, races, terrains, magic items, and more. I allow the use of psionics, warlocks, incarnum, witches, Tome of Magic, and Dream Magic (combining Manual of the Planes with Heroes of Horror).

I have no problem with the use of suitable 3PP supplements, so long as they fit the campaign, i.e. "The Deep" (Mystic Eye Games), "Into the Blue" (Bastion Press), and other undersea supplements that can be incorporated into the World of Greyhawk setting.

I am currently developing a witch class based on hag sponsorship, a bard class based on song magic (Loom), and my own interpretation of ley line magics.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Among other things, I would love to just rip out a lot of core stuff. Namely Elves/Eladrin/Dwarves/Halflings, replace them with other races, from other WotC products/Homebrew/3pp races. But I have this very strong feeling that most gamers would balk at not getting to play the Standby Demi-Humans, or would just go with Human out of protest.

Here is my advice:

FRIGGIN' DO IT.

If you know your players, and know what they like to play, take away their security blanket and give them things that take it in a new direction.

People like playing elves? Rip 'em out, replace them with forest-dwelling monkeys (like the Vanara from OA). People like playing dwarves? They are gone, but now you can play giants who lurk in the misty peaks (like the WotC giant-race).

As long as your race choices mesh up with the Five Man Band (The Hero, the Lancer, the Smart One, the Big One, and the Team Mom...see TV Tropes) you'll have your major bases covered.

Seriously, take them out of their comfort zone. If they're too scared of a different flavor of magical imaginary being, you can always go back or work out some sort of accommodation (sure, you can play a halfling, but you are the only one in existence, and you were sold to the circus by your destitute human parents). But no one gained much of anything in boring-old Samesville.