Sword Mage vs Rogue vs everybody else...(min-maxing and stacking damage questions)

[gofargogo]

I've got a swordmage (mix-maxed) in my party who is always doing way more damage than either the rogue or the warlock, who are not min-maxed, but have really good stats. At level 8, with feats and a vampiric sword the SM is regularly doing 30+ damage each round. That seem really high to me, but I can't figure out where the error is. But I have a couple of questions I couldn't figure out in reading the books.

These are some of hte relevant stats I can think of off the top of my head: His intelligence bonus is +6, his base damage bonus is +10. His weapon is D12. And he'll often use burning sword (+6 fire damage with every future attack during the encounter). So this is plus +16 just to damage, with every attack. And the Rogue and the Warlock, don't seem to do nearly the damage the SM does.

Q1: What bonuses stack? Is there a hard rule for determining stacking?
Q2: When using a special attack, do you include all the base-damage-bonus that you get with a standard melee, or is it simply X[W]+Ability Mod? E.g. X[d12]+6?

 

[chitzk0i]

Yes, there's a hard rules for stacking. If two bonuses have the same type, use only the larger one.

As for your other question, most damage bonuses say "bonus to damage rolls". So if you're rolling damage, you add that bonus.

 

[Lakoda]

Either he has some really nice stats or he is doing some funny math there.

First, the power you are referring to it called Burning Blade, it is a level 1 daily that on a successful hit grants +STR mod Fire dmg to melee attacks for the remainder of the encounter. There are a few things with this alone that caught my attention. First, with a +6 INT mod (a 22 INT would require a +2 int race, likely a Genasi) and at level 8 the players have had two +1 to two ability scores. So assuming the Genasi, he has a base INT of 18, +2 racial, and two +1s (at 4th and 8th level) for a 22 INT. Using a standard point buy his next best stat could at best be a 14 (which would be either STR or CON, but given that he seems to like damage it is probably STR) with the same +2 racial and two +1s for a 18 STR (+4). So right there his Burning Blade ability should only be +4, not +6. Also, remember that Burning Blade is a daily and not usable every encounter, and if he misses with the attack he does not get the bonus (and it is not a reliable power so he is SOL until after an extended rest). Finally, the bonus is Fire damage (which can be reduced by immunities or resistances) and requires him to use a melee power (but my guess is that he took all the melee powers so he should use his weapons damage dice instead of the fixed dice for the ranged, area and close attacks).

The other thing that caught my eye is base damage, how the heck is it +10, unless he has feats to raise it, should only be +6 (from INT mod); or +8 with weapon focus and astral fire which would have required two feats, well three since a d12 blade is likely a superior weapon.

 

[James McMurray]

The other thing that caught my eye is base damage, how the heck is it +10, unless he has feats to raise it, should only be +6 (from INT mod); or +8 with weapon focus and astral fire which would have required two feats, well three since a d12 blade is likely a superior weapon.

His sword is probably +3 and he only has one of the feats.

 

[gofargogo]

Yes, I believe he has weapons focus and a +2 or +3 sword. That said, he tends to read things in his favor, and he maybe unconsciously double counting something. This whole thing came up because he does so much more damage than everyone else at the table, which makes my rogue and warlock feel a little underpowered and useless, while also killing my monsters much faster than I'd anticipated.
I am not looking forward to going through his character creation with a fine toothed comb, but I think that's what I'll have to do. I wish the WOTC character generator went past levels 1-3. Argh.

Thanks for the help!

 

[amysrevenge]

I had a local swordmage who was doing too much damage as well - turns out he was adding the half-level bonus to damage as well as to everything else...

He was also using Int for melee basic attacks without the Intelligent Swordmaster feat, until we pointed it out and he retrained for it.

Also watch out about which weapon is being used - the only light/heavy blade that does 1d12 in any of the WotC books is the (two-handed) fullblade, and you as the DM can control whether he gets his AC bonus for having nothing in one hand while he's wielding (but not actually attacking with) a two-handed weapon.

 

[aurance]

...if he misses with [Burning Blade] he does not get the bonus (and it is not a reliable power so he is SOL until after an extended rest).

Actually he still gets the bonus if he misses, as the bonus is under "Effect:" line and not "Hit:".

...weapon focus and astral fire...

These two don't stack. Feat bonuses.

 

[Gruns]

Part 2

Q1: What bonuses stack? Is there a hard rule for determining stacking?

While the first question was answered, I'll add an example for clarity. The feat Improved Initiative gives a +4 FEAT Bonus to initiative. The feat Quick Draw gives a +2 FEAT Bonus to initiative (and does other stuff irrelevant to this). Since both of those bonuses are named FEAT Bonus, if a player takes both of the feats, he only gets +4 to his initiative, the better of the two values. Unnamed bonuses do stack with other unnamed bonuses.

Q2: When using a special attack, do you include all the base-damage-bonus that you get with a standard melee, or is it simply X[W]+Ability Mod? E.g. X[d12]+6?

For most "special attacks" (by which I assume you mean powers?) you do. This is mentioned in the "Hit" section of the power itself. Regardless of how many [W] damage you deal, you still only add your Ability Damage just once. For example, let's pick a simple one. The Fighter level one Daily, Brute Strike. It's just a simple Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage. Let's assume a +2 Bastard Sword (d10) and 18 Strength. On a hit, you deal 3d10 + 6 damage, not 3d10 +18 damage as some may believe.

As for how your Swordmage is dishing out that much damage, it sounds like there were some minor math errors, at least with Burning Blade bonus. That said, it isn't inconceivable that he dish out this much damage with a d12 weapon, especially combined with Burning Blade and multi [W] attacks, which he isn't likely to be using every single round.

Later!
Gruns

 

[gofargogo]

Thanks this has been very helpful!

Ok, I'm home looking at the character sheet now. He has an INT of 22 (+6), a +2 fullblade, and iron bands of power (+2 to melee damage). That adds up to +10 with every attack.

One minor issue, can he wear 'iron bands' when he's only proficient in leather? The AV doesn't describe arm slots as an armor type.

I guess I'll have to fight him with tactics, not math.

 

[yesnomu]

Iron Armbands of Power are an item from the AV. They aren't armor, so any character can use them. They're also pretty cheesy, and lame items in my book (along with Bracers of Archery, like Rangers needed more help). I don't allow them in my games, talk to your DM about them.