"Stuck" playing 4e (i.e. unwilling converts)

[thecasualoblivion]

The world is not that binary, and even if it was, gaining elements of this shouldn't be badwrongfun.

The only time when badwrongfun isn't bulls*** is when the fun starts to ruin everyone else at the table's fun. Some elements of 3E strayed into that territory IMO.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The only time when badwrongfun isn't bulls*** is when the fun starts to ruin everyone else at the table's fun. Some elements of 3E strayed into that territory IMO.

It's a rare misanthrope who gains enjoyment from making others' games less fun.

Rather, I would think that the pursuit of one kind of enjoyment might accidentally hurt others' games.

In that latter case, compromise is possible, and might just require some redefinition.

Sort of: It's OK to wring out an additional minor benefit for the wizard player if he games the numbers cleverly (in the form of a party combo or skillful research of their enemies, or whatever) because he has fun doing that. That is what is fun, so that should be pursued. That particular game should arrange itself under the assumption that seeking that sort of fun is OK, encouraged, and great to have.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

The only time when badwrongfun isn't bulls*** is when the fun starts to ruin everyone else at the table's fun. Some elements of 3E strayed into that territory IMO.

But at that point it's the mentality of the player that's doing it NOT the rules. A player who does something like this just because they can without taking into consideration the fun of the other people at the table is just being a selfish dick. No amount of rules nerfing is going to change that, not even 4E.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

It's a rare misanthrope who gains enjoyment from making others' games less fun.

Rather, I would think that the pursuit of one kind of enjoyment might accidentally hurt others' games.

In that latter case, compromise is possible, and might just require some redefinition.

Sort of: It's OK to wring out an additional minor benefit for the wizard player if he games the numbers cleverly (in the form of a party combo or skillful research of their enemies, or whatever) because he has fun doing that. That is what is fun, so that should be pursued. That particular game should arrange itself under the assumption that seeking that sort of fun is OK, encouraged, and great to have.

But at that point it's the mentality of the player that's doing it NOT the rules. A player who does something like this just because they can without taking into consideration the fun of the other people at the table is just being a selfish dick. No amount of rules nerfing is going to change that, not even 4E.

A jerk player can certainly accomplish this, but the system was so out of wack in places that "Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit" could happen unintentionally.

 

[Henry]

We aren't playing 4E right now, in part because we have one player who just does not play when we are playing 4E; he tried to get into it, but the Wizard's situation, combined with the "simulation-breaking" game mechanics, just didn't do it for him. Things like healing surges, some of the push/pull powers that are vaguely worded as to why they work, etc. just took some of the fuzzt bits already present in 4E and expanded upon them to simply cross the whole system. So, long story short, we value our gaming time with him more than we value time playing 4E. We'll get back to 4E, likely, but for now we're having too much fun running Star Wars, 3.5e, and other systems that he WILL game with us, and quite frankly I have lots of people willing to play 4E, but not many willing to DM the game yet; I think the fear quotient is still pretty high on that part, despite me telling them I've had more fun DM'ing 4E than I've had DMing in YEARS.

Ultimately, any game system that causes a rift with friends, or loss of time with friends, ain't worth it, quite frankly, no matter how well designed it is.

 

[The Little Raven]

But at that point it's the mentality of the player that's doing it NOT the rules.

People abusing a system is a sign that something is wrong with that system.

 

[Imaro]

People abusing a system is a sign that something is wrong with that system.

Any and all systems can be abused (especially by the DM), so I guess that means something is wrong with all systems. Or maybe...people need to show some maturity and responsibility for the environment they create in using the system of an rpg... and if they can't perhaps then they really do need to play games with more restrictions...sorta like training wheels on a bike, until they learn how to.

 

[Shroomy]

If your player is really into the system math and optimization, then I would encourage him to sit down with the books and really delve into the minutae of the system. I mean, we are talking about a system where a +1 bonus to hit or damage has a large in-game impact over time. There's a lot of potential tinkering that the player could do and the best part from your and the other player's perspective is that it isn't likely to have a game-breaking effect.

As for the class issue, if your player feels that strongly about the 4e wizard and is willing to play another class, I'd encourage the player to not play the wizard. I'd direct him towards another of the arcane classes, IMO, the warlock, artificer, and swordmage (in that order), or a wizard multi-class build (another good way for him to tinker).

 

[thecasualoblivion]

We aren't playing 4E right now, in part because we have one player who just does not play when we are playing 4E; he tried to get into it, but the Wizard's situation, combined with the "simulation-breaking" game mechanics, just didn't do it for him. Things like healing surges, some of the push/pull powers that are vaguely worded as to why they work, etc. just took some of the fuzzt bits already present in 4E and expanded upon them to simply cross the whole system. So, long story short, we value our gaming time with him more than we value time playing 4E. We'll get back to 4E, likely, but for now we're having too much fun running Star Wars, 3.5e, and other systems that he WILL game with us, and quite frankly I have lots of people willing to play 4E, but not many willing to DM the game yet; I think the fear quotient is still pretty high on that part, despite me telling them I've had more fun DM'ing 4E than I've had DMing in YEARS.

Ultimately, any game system that causes a rift with friends, or loss of time with friends, ain't worth it, quite frankly, no matter how well designed it is.

We have the opposite effect right now. We have at least two players who would outright walk out the door if we went back to 3.5E D&D at this point.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

People abusing a system is a sign that something is wrong with that system.

Especially when abusing a system can mean something as mundane as "plays a Druid".