Bigby's Icy Grasp questions

[keterys]

Couple questions on the working of this spell -

1) The wording for attacking with the hand is listed under the sustain minor (unlike the move facet). In rounds after the first, can you use a standard action to attack with the hand -then- sustain minor the spell if you hit, for the additional damage?

2) After sustaining the hand for damage, can you release a grabbed target then use a standard action to attack that target? If not, can you release the grabbed target at all if you have no other targets to attack, and if so what type of action is it?

Thanks, just seen some disparity on how it's been ruled.

 

[Kordeth]

Couple questions on the working of this spell -

1) The wording for attacking with the hand is listed under the sustain minor (unlike the move facet). In rounds after the first, can you use a standard action to attack with the hand -then- sustain minor the spell if you hit, for the additional damage?

2) After sustaining the hand for damage, can you release a grabbed target then use a standard action to attack that target? If not, can you release the grabbed target at all if you have no other targets to attack, and if so what type of action is it?

Thanks, just seen some disparity on how it's been ruled.

In both cases no. You can only sustain a spell once per round. See PHB p. 278.

 

[N8Ball]

In both cases no. You can only sustain a spell once per round. See PHB p. 278.

That's not what he asked. He's asking if you can sustain once (for damage) and also attack once (for more damage) in the same round.

I don't see why you couldn't by RAW, but releasing a creature just to grab it again seems a bit beardy and I don't think that's how the spell was intended to work.

On the other hand, if you sustained the spell first in your round and killed the creature being held, it would make complete sense to move and attack with the hand again before the end of your turn accomplishing the double damage, but against 2 different targets.

 

[Kordeth]

That's not what he asked. He's asking if you can sustain once (for damage) and also attack once (for more damage) in the same round.

Ummm....yeah, and both sustaining for damage and attacking a new creature are Sustain effects of the power. You can only sustain a power once per round. Ergo, you cannot sustain minor for damage and sustain standard to attack in the same round.

 

[Gruns]

Couple questions on the working of this spell -

1) The wording for attacking with the hand is listed under the sustain minor (unlike the move facet). In rounds after the first, can you use a standard action to attack with the hand -then- sustain minor the spell if you hit, for the additional damage?

1) No. After the initial casting, you don't get to attack with the hand until you've Sustained it, as the Attack text is part of the Sustain section.

2) After sustaining the hand for damage, can you release a grabbed target then use a standard action to attack that target? If not, can you release the grabbed target at all if you have no other targets to attack, and if so what type of action is it?

2a) This one is slightly trickier and boils down to your interpretation of the word "another". I have a feeling most people (me included) consider 'another target' to mean 'a target that isn't the current target'. Therefore, no. (But I can see how the 'another target' could be interpretted to allow it to attack the same target again.)

2b)As for the releasing of the grabbed target, releasing an enemy from a Grab is a Free Action, and there's nothing preventing you from doing this with the hand.

Thanks, just seen some disparity on how it's been ruled.

Later!
Gruns

 

[keterys]

You'd only be sustaining the power once, in each round. Even if you take a standard to attack, you still have to use a minor to sustain.

Your rounds would look like:

Example 1) Round 2 of combat, no one currently grabbed (perhaps they already escaped).
Standard: Attack with Hand, successfully grab
Minor: Sustain spell

Example 2) Round 2 of combat, someone is currently grabbed
Minor: Sustain spell
???: Release grabbed target
Maybe Standard: Attack with Hand

I've seen two interpretations for #1:
* You must do the sustain minor to open up the possibility to make the standard attack that turn
* As normal, you can sustain the spell at any time in the round so you can use the standard attack at any time, then sustain it

For the second,
* You can drop something as a move or free action, so it drops the target and makes a standard attack as usual on any target (including the one it had just been grabbing)
* You can only switch targets if there is one around, so if you have only one target and it's already grabbed then you cannot use the standard attack option.
* You can drop the target somehow, but can't grab the target you sustained on for some other reason

Thanks for the responses, again

 

[Kordeth]

You'd only be sustaining the power once, in each round. Even if you take a standard to attack, you still have to use a minor to sustain.

Your rounds would look like:

Example 1) Round 2 of combat, no one currently grabbed (perhaps they already escaped).
Standard: Attack with Hand, successfully grab
Minor: Sustain spell

Example 2) Round 2 of combat, someone is currently grabbed
Minor: Sustain spell
???: Release grabbed target
Maybe Standard: Attack with Hand

Attacking a new target with the hand is also sustaining the power (note that the description thereof is in the Sustain entry). You cannot sustain the spell more than once per round.

 

[keterys]

Attacking a new target with the hand is also sustaining the power (note that the description thereof is in the Sustain entry). You cannot sustain the spell more than once per round.

The standard action to attack is not a 'sustain standard', regardless of whether the ability to use it in the sustain minor text. You need to sustain minor for the spell to function, so you're arguing that you cannot then make a standard attack with it.

If it were instead worded 'You may instead use a standard action...', I would agree and that would solve things nicely. That may indeed be RAI, meaning that you also can't sustain for damage and attack another target, at all, making the spell a bit less powerful - which I don't think is a good thing, but it is interesting.

I do personally think that you can't sustain it on a target and attack that target with the hand in the same round, but for different reasons already outlined above.

I don't think it's clear that you can drop a target from the grab without attacking another target, as the only actions you can take with the hand are outlined in the spell text I'd think, and that's not one of them except as part of the standard... but it might be implied, so I'm not commited. One inherent problem with allowing a target to be dropped as a free action is that it makes a case for sustain, drop, attack, but you could then point to the 'another' wording in the sustain. Weaker case, though.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Attacking a new target with the hand is also sustaining the power (note that the description thereof is in the Sustain entry).

Attacking a new target with the hand is something you're able to do if you have sustained the power. (Note that the description thereof is in the Sustain Minor entry.)

It's the same as Flaming Sphere - you have to take the minor action to prevent the effect expiring at the end of your turn, but that doesn't prevent you taking a standard action to attack someone with it!

-Hyp.

 

[Mengu]

1) The wording for attacking with the hand is listed under the sustain minor (unlike the move facet). In rounds after the first, can you use a standard action to attack with the hand -then- sustain minor the spell if you hit, for the additional damage?

I'd rule yes. Under durations, it says starting on the turn after you create an effect, you sustain the effect by taking the indicated action. So the turn you create the effect, you can't sustain it. Thereafter, it doesn't matter what else you did during your turn, when you sustain the power, if the hand has a grabbed opponent, you deal the damage.

I'm not buying the "the standard action is listed under sustain" excuse. Where else would it be listed?

2) After sustaining the hand for damage, can you release a grabbed target then use a standard action to attack that target? If not, can you release the grabbed target at all if you have no other targets to attack, and if so what type of action is it?

Question is, can the same target be another target? I'm inclined to say no, but it is a bit fuzzy. If it said "you may attack a different target" it would have been quite clear.

DM: Pick a number.
DB: 5.
DM: Pick another number.
DB: 5.
DM: That's the same number.
DB: You didn't tell me to pick a different number...