I think the encounter power solution is for you. The paladin provides a consistent, reliable bonus...the cleric provides a big bonus once in a while. Each are unique.
Fixing Sacred Circle
- Thread starter dangerous jack
- Start date
I think the encounter power solution is for you. The paladin provides a consistent, reliable bonus...the cleric provides a big bonus once in a while. Each are unique.
Are you only having one fight per day? Or is it possible that in a sample module where there is a decent fight with some elites, and a big fight with solo.... the paladin uses his on one of the fights, then the cleric uses theirs on the other?
They are daily's... I don't think they will be using them on the same fight too much...
They are daily's... I don't think they will be using them on the same fight too much...
CapnZapp
Legend
Dangerous jack,
I still don't see the problem. The game's bound to feature lots of cases like this, where character A gets power 1, character B gets power 2, and power 2 is strictly better than power 1. This in itself is not an argument for change.
Apart from the obvious case when characters A and B don't adventure together, there are plenty more options available:
I) A retrains, now that B covers that kind of ability better.
II) B retrains, now that he's teamed up with A he thinks power 1 is adequate, he want to try out something else he didn't think he could afford earlier.
III) Both A and B keep their powers but use them at different times.
If you generally believe Sacred Circle is too weak, then say so and we could discuss ways to make it better.
But to improve powers simply because others to that particular job better?! Nah, not a chance.
And I note your Paladin player independently chose Sacred Circle. That suggests it's plenty powerful in itself. You need to stop looking at other people's abilities when evaluating a power's strength, especially people with a different job/role than you!
I can't stop you from buffing Sacred Circle, but from what you've said so far, you're doing it for misguided reasons.
Regards,
Zapp
I still don't see the problem. The game's bound to feature lots of cases like this, where character A gets power 1, character B gets power 2, and power 2 is strictly better than power 1. This in itself is not an argument for change.
Apart from the obvious case when characters A and B don't adventure together, there are plenty more options available:
I) A retrains, now that B covers that kind of ability better.
II) B retrains, now that he's teamed up with A he thinks power 1 is adequate, he want to try out something else he didn't think he could afford earlier.
III) Both A and B keep their powers but use them at different times.
If you generally believe Sacred Circle is too weak, then say so and we could discuss ways to make it better.
But to improve powers simply because others to that particular job better?! Nah, not a chance.
And I note your Paladin player independently chose Sacred Circle. That suggests it's plenty powerful in itself. You need to stop looking at other people's abilities when evaluating a power's strength, especially people with a different job/role than you!
I can't stop you from buffing Sacred Circle, but from what you've said so far, you're doing it for misguided reasons.
Regards,
Zapp
I'll disagree with you on this one Zapp.
4e put everyone's powers in the same box, encounter, daily, and at will. An encounter power of level 7 has an expected "awesomeness" rating regardless of class.
Further, it wouldn't be a problem if classes could pick multiple powers per level. In that case, the paladin could take sacred circle more as a backup power, while the cleric uses shield of faith as a main stay.
But since you get one choice, its got to a be a good one, and in this case shield of faith is just flat out better than sacred circle in every way. If paladin's aren't supposed to have leader powers, then lets not give them anyway, but given them watered down versions of his utility just makes the character feel bad compared to another classes power.
CapnZapp
Legend
I would like to say you're right here, but it is obvious it ain't so.
If you only look at whether a power is an encounter or daily power, and disregards whether you give it to the fighter or the cleric, then... well, let's just say the game doesn't work that way.
The Paladin's Lay On Hands is much worse than the Warlord's Inspiring Word in all regards (except if you consider having to pay the Healing Surge yourself an advantage because it frees up the target from using one).
Are you saying it should be buffed too? Or, I guess, that if it were to be elevated to the encounter level (a huge improvement by itself), then you would think it needed (further) improvement?
As I said, you have a point, yes, the game would be easier to balance if you were right. But now, with the game we have, the argument doesn't fly.
If you only look at whether a power is an encounter or daily power, and disregards whether you give it to the fighter or the cleric, then... well, let's just say the game doesn't work that way.
The Paladin's Lay On Hands is much worse than the Warlord's Inspiring Word in all regards (except if you consider having to pay the Healing Surge yourself an advantage because it frees up the target from using one).
Are you saying it should be buffed too? Or, I guess, that if it were to be elevated to the encounter level (a huge improvement by itself), then you would think it needed (further) improvement?
As I said, you have a point, yes, the game would be easier to balance if you were right. But now, with the game we have, the argument doesn't fly.
I still don't see the point. A paladin isn't choosing between shield of faith and sacred circle.
dangerous jack
First Post
At least it only takes a minor action. And it's at-will (sortof). And there are situations in which both might be needed and the Paladin won't feel like he wasted his action. (And I've already come into a situation where one PC was out of surges and the Paladin used Lay on Hands to good effect.)
He's not, but it's my personal preference that if a power is presented as an option for a class, then there should be a situation in which it is the right tool for the job. I don't think powers of the same level and type should have one being better in every way (some or even most ways is fine with me). Getting rid of system mastery was part of the design goals for 4e, and it's one of my favourite things that they did (or at least made progress towards).
The player hasn't chosen a power that uses a non-prime ability score, or used a feat to gain an extra power; he's taken one of the three utility powers presented for Paladins, and I think it does have a divine defender feel to it. Why should it not only be inferior in every way, but also be invalidated by the cleric's power?
Anyway, I'm probably just going to take Stalker0's suggestion of making Sacred Circle an encounter power, just so that there's something better about it.
I see a certain reason also, but to me, each class is on its own in the power dept... or at least each role is on its own...
If I want to compare powers, I compare to others of the same role... the paladin is a defender with leader-style powers... not a leader with defender-style powers... so Sacred Circle to me is Supposed to be weaker than the cleric's same level power. Just as a cleric's melee attacks should be weaker than the rogue's melee attacks, and both of them should have less HP and other defender'ish stuff than the Paladin.
Roles need to be defined, and to do that, you have to make their powers stronger than other peoples' powers with regards to their specialties.
CapnZapp
Legend
*shrug*
To me it seems you're taking a perfectly good power (your Paladin player did choose it all by himself) and making it better just because some other player can outshine this, which is not a rational decision.
Doesn't this make Sacred Circle a no-brainer to take? What about those other two Pally powers at that level? Won't they collect dust forevermore, now that you've taken a Daily and turned it into an Encounter (a huge boost)?
And what about the argument the Cleric and the Pally could use their respective powers in different encounters during the day, thus getting full and unrestricted use out of each power? That's an obvious argument, but not one you have replied to yet (I think).
later,
Zapp
The argument is not the same.
When you compare class abilities, you have to compare the whole package together.
Paladin's get lay on hands, divine challenge, good armor, weapon profi, defender hitpoints, and divine fortune or divine mettle.
Clerics get holy word, the ability to add wisdom to healing, leader hitpoints and prof, and divine fortune or turn undead.
When I compare a 1st level cleric and paladin, they should be roughly balanced as far as their roles go. And a 2nd level cleric and paladin, still balanced, etc.
Once we look at the utility, the two classes should theoretically be balanced, meaning every power at each level among the classes should be roughly balanced with each other (afterall, that's the point of having powers by level in the first place).
Now I have no problem saying that sacred circle shouldn't be as good a party buff as shield of faith, afterall the cleric is a leader, the paladin is not. But that means sacred circle should perhaps do something...defenderish to compensate.
But in this case, both are party buffs. That is all they do. Both are dailies, both are the same level. They should have roughly the same effectiveness, and they do not. That's why I recommended making sacred circle an encounter power. Now its still not as good buff as shield of faith, but its more frequenty. Different....but balanced.
As for the other paladin powers, I'm a fan of the +4 to all diplomacy rolls for an encounter myself, I like skill based powers. That third one, yeah that thing is garbage
dangerous jack
First Post
True, this is a possibility, but the Cleric's power is always tactically better than the Paladin's. There's no opportunity for the Paladin to be the hero, and other utility powers allow for that (even if it's out of combat). It's always going to be: is this encounter tough enough to warrant the Cleric expending his daily? If not, only then should we consider the Paladin's.
Well, it's not like the paladin has a load of choices right now (3)
. But I guess I should allow for the possibility that it's Shield of Faith that is overpowered, not Sacred Circle that is underpowered. I am coming from the premise that a level 2 utility power within a characters class should not be outshone and invalidated 100% of the time by another PC's level 2 utility power within his class.Current thoughts: after sleeping on it, I'm not sure whether I'll bump it to an encounter power. Burst 3 for the length of the encounter, every encounter, could effectively give the PCs a +1 to AC, since a 7x7 square is a large enough space to allow for a lot of tactics.
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