Wrong facts about D&D3 combat?

Until they realize that casters can do a similar thing, except to all foes on the battlefield. And for longer than 1 round. And they don't even have to hit. And this was accessible at what...lv7?;)

It just reinforces the whole "Only casters are allowed nice things, while melee get flak just because it can deal pitiful AoE fire damage" stereotype.

I'll second this. It amuses me how many people call Bo9S broken for even daring to narrow the gap in effectiveness between a high level warrior and a high level caster.
 

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Combats take a long time – we seem to naturally pace about 3-5 minutes per combat round.

Combats are short, 1-3 rounds – we regularly experience 4-8 rounds of combat, with some going up to 10+, only occasionally 3 or less.

Combat is the PCs vs. one opponent – we regularly fight multiple enemies, usually 3-6, sometimes a dozen or more, only occasionally just 1.

The first two are explained by the third: If you're only using a single opponent for the PCs, it's likely that you're using a more powerful and complex monster than if you've got a large group of opponents. This tends to slow down play as the DM learns the rope of the new opponent.

But if you're only fighting a single opponent, then combat is probably going to be pretty short: When everybody is wailing on a single target, the target just can't last very long.

There are also quite a few cascading effects at work here, too:

(1) IME, the first few rounds of combat are the slowest. The PCs are still figuring out what they're doing and the DM is still familiarizing themselves with the monsters. If it's a short combat, then just as everyone starts to get warmed up it comes to an end.

(2) If you're routinely designing around single opponents, those single opponents are likely to end up being EL+2 or EL+4. Some of this is a desire to get a "bang for your buck" and some of it is in an effort to lengthen combats which are "too short". Unfortunately, this doesn't do much to lengthen combat (because you've still got all the PCs wailing on a single target), but it does tend to slow it down. Why? Because an EL+2 or EL+4 creature is dangerous -- it can take out low HP classes very, very quickly. In those circumstances, the players learn to be cautious... and caution slows things down.

Is my group, are my games the anomaly, or are the “accepted facts” of the edition wrong for you, too?

I'm pretty much on your page.

We'll have long combats, but they're long because they're epic -- not because the rules are bogging us down. A couple weeks ago, for example, we ran a 4 hour session that was essentially a single running combat. But it involved a dozen opponents, a half dozen areas, multiple ambushes, and lasted for 40+ rounds.

We'll also have very short, quick combats -- usually against mooks. A few months ago we had a session that was pretty much the polar opposite of that one: It lasted about 6 hours, during which we resolved 10-12 combat encounters (depending on how you chose to count them -- a couple of them kind of bled into each other).

(This is a group with 5 players, 6 PCs, and two animal companions.)

My group strives for 3-5 minutes (or less) per combat encounter. Of course, that's why I only play 'B/X' D&D and Microlite20 now.

I don't know Microlite20, but there's no way you're achieving that kind of resolution time in B/X D&D unless all of your combats are resolved in one-hit kills in the first round of combat. (Which would, frankly, be mind-numbingly boring for me.)

3 minutes for a combat encounter involving 4 players + DM means that everyone is getting less than 40 seconds to declare, resolve, and describe their actions.

If a game wasn't particularly focused on combat, I could see using a one-roll combat resolution check type of mechanic that could achieve interesting results in that type of timeframe. But D&D just isn't (and has never been) that game.

I'm skeptical that you accomplish this in an average of 36 to 60 seconds. I believe that you accomplish the occasional 36 to 60 second turn. I do not believe that it is the average, or even the norm if you are playing at mid to upper levels of the game. Your average should be demolished by the occasional four minute turn while something gets looked up, and the regular social rituals of human interaction and of combat narration should demolish your 36 to 60 second baseline.

I can't speak for the original poster, but I'll certainly have longer turns where we're looking up the rules for a spell or whatever. But we'll also have 5 second turns in which the fighter will roll his dice, miss, and we'll move on.

My group is also pretty good at multitasking. An extreme example of that is healing: The cleric knows when his turn is coming up, knows where he's moving, and knows who he's healing. More often than not, when his turn comes up he'll have already told the person he's healing how much they'll be getting healed for. And even if he hasn't that interaction still looks like:

DM: It's the cleric's turn.
Cleric: I heal so-and-so.
DM: Okay, it's the fighter's turn.

And then the DM can leave the cleric and so-and-so to resolve the bookkeeping while combat continues flowing.

Like I say, that's an extreme example. But it makes a big difference if (a) the DM doesn't try to micro-manage everything; and (b) players are engaged and thinking ahead to what their next action will be.

The biggest slow-downs at our table happens when the situation suddenly changes in an unexpected fashion and the next player has to reconsider the action they were planning to take.

Our DM has an article about this: Running Combat.
 

The first two are explained by the third: If you're only using a single opponent for the PCs, it's likely that you're using a more powerful and complex monster than if you've got a large group of opponents. This tends to slow down play as the DM learns the rope of the new opponent.
Ah, not really. Or rather: it depends.

In my 3E campaign (currently 9 players with an average level of ~12) combats rarely take more than a couple of rounds but lots of real time. A 'boss' fight against an npc party plus followers at level 10 almost took 6 hours to resolve. So it took almost an hour per round.

Most combats take 1-2 hours to resolve, no matter if I use many lower-level monsters or few (or a single) high-level opponent.

Of course the major reasons for this are:
- many players (typically 5-7 show up for a given session)
- most players are not firm in the combat rules
- players don't start to think about their actions before it's their turn
- lots of tactical discussions during combat
- spellcasters don't know their spells good enough

I honestly cannot say if things would be better if we were playing 4E.
I'm pretty sure though that I would need a lot less prep time before a session!
 

In 8 or so years of DMing 3rd ed. I've never seen a fight take more than half an hour.

All these claims of 6 hour fights really leave me scratching my head.
 

Heh, our 3e combats were usually about 10 to 15 minutes just for ONE player's turn!
See, it's statements like this that make me wonder if people are just saying things without really knowing the reality they're talking about. I mean, 10-15 minutes for one player to resolve his turn? Why would you play with people like this? I can create a base (sans magic items, and non-optimized) 20th level character in 15 minutes.

Bullgrit
 

See, it's statements like this that make me wonder if people are just saying things without really knowing the reality they're talking about. I mean, 10-15 minutes for one player to resolve his turn? Why would you play with people like this? I can create a base (sans magic items, and non-optimized) 20th level character in 15 minutes.

Bullgrit

So can I. I use the DMG chart or PHB2.

As I've said (and I notice you've not taken into account) its not "roll, hit/miss, damage, repeat" that is slowing down combat, its mass-bull-strengthed, enlarged, polymorphed, hasted PCs making full attacks with 2-handed power attack while their summoned monsters move into flank and make full attacks, and oh, did I mention I have a quickened fireball?

The problem is the in 3e, casters have so many options to break the round-structure (summoning) or so many mathematical adjustments on the fly (Bob, you're a Hill Giant now) that the game crawls from sheer info lag. And that doesn't even begin to cover immediate actions (oh, he attacked Bob? I get a free attack now!) or other out-of-turn actions (Fireball? I counterspell it!)

I have a way to fix it. Remove summoning, animal companions, and polymorph. Turn all buff magic into direct combat numbers (+1 to hit) not ability score changes. Remove iterative attacks. Simplify all spells and powers down into 10 lines and put them on index cards. Dispose of occasional modifiers. Remove duration counting, make effects last all fight, save ends or 1 round. Simplify status conditions (nauseated? What's that do again?) and fix those long, difficult hard-to-resolve combat maneuvers like bull-rush and grapple.

In short, make combat more like 4e. :p
 

Oh, absolutely. The dragon fight in particular suffered from this - the warblade hit with the 8th-level maneuver that inflicts a 1-round stun with no save, then proceeded to tear that poor beast a new one.
That's the White Raven Hammer Maneuver, right? A good technique.
 

See, it's statements like this that make me wonder if people are just saying things without really knowing the reality they're talking about. I mean, 10-15 minutes for one player to resolve his turn? Why would you play with people like this? I can create a base (sans magic items, and non-optimized) 20th level character in 15 minutes.

Bullgrit
So am I making up the fact that my mid-level 3e combats took forever, or am I simply wrong about it?

-O
 

As I've said (and I notice you've not taken into account) its not "roll, hit/miss, damage, repeat" that is slowing down combat, its mass-bull-strengthed, enlarged, polymorphed, hasted PCs making full attacks with 2-handed power attack while their summoned monsters move into flank and make full attacks, and oh, did I mention I have a quickened fireball?
Is this amount of complication an aspect of every combat you’re in? I could see this number of variables maybe happening in the climax fight with the BBEG, but every fight?

My current game (round robin style, so I’m a player and a DM, in turn) has a druid who’s main shtick is summoning wolves (especially dire wolves)

He regularly has 2-4 wolves or dire wolves in play, and a flaming sphere and call lightning working. He manages to resolve all his wolves’ attacks (including follow up trips), his spells, and his own movement (often as a wolf or eagle) within 60-90 seconds. Over and over, for sometimes up to 10 rounds.

Granted, this PC is only 6th level, but I just can’t wrap my mind around how even at 20th level it would take someone 10 times longer to handle their actions in a round. And this druid is the most time consuming PC of all of ours. The fighter and monk take like 15 seconds, even with Spring Attack and flurry of blows and Cleave and tumble.

My character, a 6th-level cleric regularly casts divine favor and protection from evil on himself, and often gets enlarge person on, too. And I sometimes use Power Attack. And I can handle all this easily within 60 seconds (usually in about 30). Again, even at 20th level, I just can’t picture how it would take 10-20 times longer.

I’ve DMed for characters up to 12th level, and I just haven’t seen an exponential increase in time to resolve a character’s actions. I don’t think the time has doubled with the levels.

So, you see, although I know this is me saying “I don’t believe you,” it’s not that I refuse to believe it. It’s that I just can’t believe it. That is, I can’t believe it’s the game mechanics taking that long to resolve. It goes against everything I’ve experienced with the game. I can totally believe that some players/groups are just that indecisive, distracted, sloppy, or slow that rounds can take a long time – I used to play with a group that could take up 10 minutes in a group discussion on where to place a fireball. I quit that group for this reason. But nothing in my experience supports the idea that the game mechanics are that complicated to handle.

long, difficult hard-to-resolve combat maneuvers like bull-rush
Funny you should say this. We resolved two bull rushes in one fight last game session, and really, it wasn’t long or difficult. Took maybe 10 seconds each.

Sorry, but this is just something I guess I’ll never be able to understand.

Bullgrit
 


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