On the matter of half-orcs

A lot of the background depends on whether Orcs are supposed to be Monsters or just Funny Looking People.

If Orcs are Monsters then, among other things, it's OK to kill them on sight and take their stuff, just because they're Orcs. However, Orcs-as-Monsters pretty much rules out consensual relationship produced Half-Orcs.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

A lot of the background depends on whether Orcs are supposed to be Monsters or just Funny Looking People.

If Orcs are Monsters then, among other things, it's OK to kill them on sight and take their stuff, just because they're Orcs. However, Orcs-as-Monsters pretty much rules out consensual relationship produced Half-Orcs.
And let's be honest here---Orcs in in 4e (and 3e, actually) are essentially "Ape/Wolves with swords".

Elves are *much* closer to humans than the proto-simian orcs we are are presented with.

edit: Thus I find it eminently more reasonable for an elf to deign to mate with a human than a human to decide to mate with a talking babboon.
 
Last edited:

4e orcs are Proto-simian?

4e Orcs are buff hairy dudes with monstrous faces. Looking back through the various pictures, orcs seem to have become more humanlike with each edition.
 

Thus I find it eminently more reasonable for an elf to deign to mate with a human than a human to decide to mate with a talking babboon.

That's why no one likes elves. "Deigning" to mate with someone. Like a bunch of pointy-eared time wasters with no constitution are going to be great in the sack. Psh.
 

I find the inconsistency jarring. So orc-human rape is too disturbing, but it's okay to suck out someone's soul and store it in a cursed sword? Sorry, I don't buy that.

I do accept that rape is a touchy subject, and it's probably fair not to state or imply it in the core book, as you don't know who will buy it. But sooner or later, when you start adding in half-orcs and other odds and ends in the D&D backstory, I think you just need to lay it out there.

The way orcs are presented, I see only three logical possibilties

1. Humans and orcs are not interfertile.
2. Not have orcs.
3. Make orcs dependent on detecting estrus in order to become sexually aroused.

Because I can't see orcs, as written, having a human-like sexuality and not raping things. According to the 3e MM, more than a fourth of their race would qualify as psychopaths in human terms.
 

I find the inconsistency jarring. So orc-human rape is too disturbing, but it's okay to suck out someone's soul and store it in a cursed sword? Sorry, I don't buy that.

You don't see the difference between rape, which occurs to real people on a regular basis all the time, and getting your soul sucked into a cursed sword, which has never occured to anyone who's ever lived in the history of the universe?
 

You don't see the difference between rape, which occurs to real people on a regular basis all the time, and getting your soul sucked into a cursed sword, which has never occured to anyone who's ever lived in the history of the universe?

Obviously, I do see a difference. Many differences. What is the distinction in particular you want to talk about? If you want to talk about just unreality, well, I don't know anyone who's been raped by an orc, either.
 

No - I'm talking about universal criteria.

There are also culture-specific criteria, and particular cultures' normative standards of beauty vary somewhat over time - eg the amount of body fat considered desirable will vary depending on whether there is a scarcity or surplus of food.

Plus there are some consistent variables such as skin tone. Eg in warm climes where people are dark skinned, very light skin is often taken as a sign of sickness*. There is a fairly consistent universal preference for relatively lighter skin (& often hair) tones in women and darker in men, though.


*Black female doctor in south London hospital, looking at my newly born son:

"Your baby is too pale! We need to run a blood test!"

Me:
"I'm from Northern Ireland! We all look like that!"

Hate to correct you... actually, who am I kidding? I love to correct people! Anyways:

For starters, regarding body fat: you're more or less right. But it works in a weird way. If there's a food shortage, people like larger women. This can be seen in many African Countries, where it is a very good thing to be a fat woman. We also see it throughout European history. There are a few contradictions (The Chinese have usually loved tiny women, but then, they were a pretty well-fed empire for the most part), but that's the general way things work. The reason is because a large woman was seen to be well-fed, and therefore, wealthy (or at least higher in the social hierarchy).

Our corn-fed culture, however, has made it pretty easy to become fat. In fact, it's a sign of wealth to be thin these days (you can afford to eat healthier foods, you have enough money that you can afford to waste time at the gym, etc) - so it's no surprise that thinness is a sign of attraction.

Skin tone, however, is where you're off. Your example of warm climes is off - the africans of historical times often thought of the whites as "beautiful" race, and the south americans (pre contact) envisioned many of their gods as being pygmy-like in nature (this made the landing of conquistadores a bit easier for them, unfortunately). We even see this drive for lighter skin in mainstream america, but considering some of the unfortunate events in Black AMerican history, it's unfortunately easy to understand why.

Throughout history, skin tone and sexual preference have followed the same pattern as the preference of fat; i.e., people desire that which reflects social status. Historically in Europe (and much of the world), that meant lighter skin, because it meant that the individual did not have to work outside - they could afford to have someone else do it for them. This is why there was a love for the fair-haired maiden (and this applied throughout most of the world, from China to Sub-saharan africa, to South America, for the same general reasons). Nowadays, with artificial lighting and many indoor jobs, it's pretty easy to be pale as hell (god knows I am). And, as a result, we see a "tan" as being prefereable, and for the same reasons as our ancestors envied the pale - the person can afford to avoid work. They can spend time out in the sun, tanning. Or sitting in a tanning bed, sucking up carcinomas.

These rules, by the way, usually apply more to women than men. While there are definite sexual codes that men follow, they follow more general patterns related to the culture in general (in effect, a physical trait that would reflect improved social status or power in a specific culture - athelticism being a pretty common sign of male beauty).

(An interesting side effect of beauty among women that is almost universal is that there is a preference towards traits that cripple or hinder a woman - tiny feet in pre 20th century china is an obvious example. But this exists in many cultures - neck elongation in southeast asia springs to mind. Even in our modern, relatively egalitarian society is it seen - high heels, breast enlargement, long fingernails... all are examples of this sort of "Crippling" beauty).

So, really, the "universal criteria" of beauty works only like this: If it's a sign of social status in a culture, it's beauty. If it's among women, a big sign of "beauty" is that which restricts her access to the world of men. That's pretty much the only "universal" of beauty.

(I'm an anthropology major, and I never can resist the opportunity to geek out when it comes to culture!)

***

Another point someone mentioned, a bit more on topic here, is that they would presume that the seriously "unattractive" were less likely to be raped. The fact is, that is entirely not true. Rapes happen accross the board, regardless of wealth, ethnicity, or anything else like that. It is, as has been mentioned, an assertion of power.

Rather sickeningly, 1 in 6 american women have been the victims or near-victims of rape of some kind or another, or so some estimates claim. Think of that. One in Six. Were I marketing a game for general release, I would not make rape - or anything that implied rape - a part of the game. Especially if I were trying to attract a wider female audience.

For what it's worth, half-orcs in one of my worlds were made by a forced breeding program... but it worked a little bit beyond "rape". In effect, orc doxies were sold into slavery by their barbarian tribes to a roman-like empire, being sold in exchange for weapons. In this, they brought honour to their tribes - in fact, it was an honour for these women to be "sold" (as only the best orc women were sold). Orc women fought for the "privilege", not only for this familial honour, but because the life of an orc woman in "rome" was comparitively easy.

The very best of the human (or, rarely, half-orc) legionnaires could earn a nice fat paycheque if they spent the night in the bed of one of these orc doxies (who were grouped together in fairly luxurious compounds), and earned even more money if this union produced a child. The orc doxie was likewise rewarded. These half-orcs were then taken and raised in academies made specifically for war. They trained from a very young age in tactics, combat, and brotherhood, and half-orc units were elite units attached to individual armies.

(As a result, half-orcs in my campaign world were actually usually lawful neutral, though they could become chaotic if they got cut up bad in a fight)
 


Hate to correct you... actually, who am I kidding? I love to correct people! Anyways:

I don't think you've corrected me, as I don't think you said anything contrary to what I said. On skin tone, light skin tone is often preferred - especially in women as it indicates youth; it may also indicate higher status. But very very pale skin (as you see up here in northern Europe - some north Germans, Poles, some Celts), of the sort you would never normally see in eg India or sub-Saharan Africa, is often considered unattractive in low latitudes as it is taken to indicate sickness. It's a kind of reverse uncanny valley effect, where you can have too much of a good thing. That goes for fatness & thinness also.

My hospital experience, for instance - my son is part Finnish and a few % black, both through his mother; his skin tone was actually noticeably darker than that of a typical new-born Northern Irish baby. Yet to the Afro-Caribbean doctor in south London it was pale enough for her to think there was something wrong with him - white native Londoners are usually mostly Saxon rather than Celt, and have a somewhat darker tone than the Irish and Scots.
 

Remove ads

Top