need help with permanent detect magic

[Jack Simth]

I disagree.

Merely walking and looking "normally" is not the same as "studying".

It is much the same as the difference between a reflexive spot check and an active spot check.

I repeat detect magic does not function as if it were an additional type of "vision" it requires an active studying of the emanations to "detect and analyze them".

If you are allowing it as a simple "whatever I can see I can detect" type of thing then the spell is much more powerful than written.

Then Detect Magic is completely useless as-written. It requires Concentration to maintain the spell (a standard action) leaving you with only a move action left in the round. In order to study an area for one round, you need a full-round action, which is not available due to the requirement of spending a standard action maintaining the spell. Studying is not a game-defined term. Nowhere is it defined what other actions you can take while "studying an area". In requiring the character to do nothing else while studying for "1 round", you crash the spell completely under a strict reading of everything else. If you're studying the area, you can't be concentrating on the spell; if you're concentrating on the spell, you can't be studying the area. The spell requires concentration to maintain, so if you stop concentrating on the spell to study the area, you lose the spell and can't study the area to detect magic.

Even if it does require a full stop (that is, you can study the area while spending a standard action to concentrate on the spell, even though you can't walk forward while doing so), though, you can still move forward at an average rate of 20 feet per round (assuming you've got a base move of 30):
Round:
1) Full Round: check next 60 feet for magic. If no magic is found:
2) Move: Move 30 feet forward. Standard: Concentrate to maintain spell.
3) Move: Move 30 feet forward. Standard: Concentrate to maintain spell.
Restart sequence (study next 60 feet).

Every three rounds, you travel 60 feet. That's the speed of a dwarf, a halfling, a gnome, or a race with a base 30-foot move in medium or heavy armor. As party travel is limited to the speed of the slowest member, this is a fairly standard advancement pace.

Alternately, I can get a small character, and a medium-sized mount (Riding Dog, say). As a non-action, I direct the riding dog to hustle 60-feet forward while I concentrate to maintain. The next round, dog stays still, and as a full-round, I "study".

 

[Vegepygmy]

FWIW, I agree with Jack Simth and disagree with irdeggman. "Studying" has no special meaning in this case. I interpret it as simply "directing your attention toward," which is to say, keeping the object of your attention within the range and area of the spell while maintaining concentration.

 

[irdeggman]

FWIW, I agree with Jack Simth and disagree with irdeggman. "Studying" has no special meaning in this case. I interpret it as simply "directing your attention toward," which is to say, keeping the object of your attention within the range and area of the spell while maintaining concentration.

Which is not the same as not paying attention - I say studying is the same as paying attention, which means you are looking over something or keeping your attention focused.

I never said you couldn't do it while walking, a lot of actions are part of others. I said that you must specify that you are studying the area or object.

There are a lot of terms used in D&D that have not been given game spcific definitions because, IMO, the authors make the assumption that the normal definition of the word applies and it requires no special meaning for use in the game.


Examples of where the term is used in what I consider an equivalent manner


PHB pg 50

A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

PHB pg 57

She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by
getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook.

PHB pg 72

A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more can study the trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (along with her companions) without disarming it.

PHB pg 73

Melee Attack Traps: These devices can be thwarted by smashing the mechanism or blocking the weapons, as noted above. Alternatively, if a
character studies the trap as it triggers, he might be able to time his
dodges just right to avoid damage. A character who is doing nothing but
studying a trap when it first goes off gains a +4 dodge bonus against its
attacks if it is triggered again within the next minute.

PHB pg 173

If you study the same area for multiple rounds, you can often gain additional
information, as noted in the descriptive text for the spell.

Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm.

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

There are many more.

Note that by your "definition" since study has no game definition then merely looking in a direction counts for what a rogue can do with a diable device or how to disbelief an illusion, ignoring the fact that the text under phantasms specifically calls out both viewing and studying as two different things.

 

[Jack Simth]

Which is not the same as not paying attention - I say studying is the same as paying attention, which means you are looking over something or keeping your attention focused.

I never said you couldn't do it while walking, a lot of actions are part of others. I said that you must specify that you are studying the area or object.

So... If I say I'm specifically studying the cone starting 30 feet in front of me and ending 60-feet in front of my while I'm walking and concentrating on the spell, I'm fine and can determine whether or not there is any magic in that range while I travel, but If I don't specifically specify I'm doing so, I can't determine whether or not there is any magic in that range while I travel? Isn't that sort of like the DM saying you didn't get a spot check to notice the ambush because you didn't specify you looked up? What does this distinction add to the game?

There are a lot of terms used in D&D that have not been given game spcific definitions because, IMO, the authors make the assumption that the normal definition of the word applies and it requires no special meaning for use in the game.


Examples of where the term is used in what I consider an equivalent manner


PHB pg 50


PHB pg 57


PHB pg 72



PHB pg 73


PHB pg 173







There are many more.

Note that by your "definition" since study has no game definition then merely looking in a direction counts for what a rogue can do with a diable device or how to disbelief an illusion, ignoring the fact that the text under phantasms specifically calls out both viewing and studying as two different things.

Disable Device specifies an action for making the check, so the addition of "studying" has no impact on what else you can do in the meanwhile - because you're taking a very defined action as part of making the check and doing the studying.

The Melee Attack traps specify you need to be doing "nothing else". Detect Magic does not specify such. If anything, the distinction on the melee attack trap studying would suggest that Studying is not, in and of itself, an action under most circumstances.

The phrase for Illusions isn't particularly well defined anyway - nor are the game-mechanical effects of making a Major Image of a grown dragon. Illusions have always had a lot of ad-hock aspects to them. Likewise, the Wizard Spell Preparation section isn't particularly clear on what studying means. Otherwise, if anything, studying appears to be reasonably strongly implied to be divorced from actual actions.

 

[SnowHeart]

Then Detect Magic is completely useless as-written. It requires Concentration to maintain the spell (a standard action) leaving you with only a move action left in the round. In order to study an area for one round, you need a full-round action, which is not available due to the requirement of spending a standard action maintaining the spell. Studying is not a game-defined term. Nowhere is it defined what other actions you can take while "studying an area". In requiring the character to do nothing else while studying for "1 round", you crash the spell completely under a strict reading of everything else. If you're studying the area, you can't be concentrating on the spell; if you're concentrating on the spell, you can't be studying the area. The spell requires concentration to maintain, so if you stop concentrating on the spell to study the area, you lose the spell and can't study the area to detect magic.

Even if it does require a full stop (that is, you can study the area while spending a standard action to concentrate on the spell, even though you can't walk forward while doing so), though, you can still move forward at an average rate of 20 feet per round (assuming you've got a base move of 30):
Round:
1) Full Round: check next 60 feet for magic. If no magic is found:
2) Move: Move 30 feet forward. Standard: Concentrate to maintain spell.
3) Move: Move 30 feet forward. Standard: Concentrate to maintain spell.
Restart sequence (study next 60 feet).

Every three rounds, you travel 60 feet. That's the speed of a dwarf, a halfling, a gnome, or a race with a base 30-foot move in medium or heavy armor. As party travel is limited to the speed of the slowest member, this is a fairly standard advancement pace.

Alternately, I can get a small character, and a medium-sized mount (Riding Dog, say). As a non-action, I direct the riding dog to hustle 60-feet forward while I concentrate to maintain. The next round, dog stays still, and as a full-round, I "study".

I actually think Jack has a point here. If you have detect magic active, by the rules all you need to do to maintain concentration on it is take a single move action per round. When you're actively engaged in a dungeon crawl, you are concentrating on your environment, watching out for threats, and so on. I think it's a natural match. Where I draw the line, though, is the idea that you can maintain that concentration perpetually, such as when you're traveling through town, eating dinner, fording a river, and so on. There are limits to a person's ability to concentrate and, despite the RAW, I think a line would have to be drawn at a certain point. (E.g., when you're leaving the dungeon with your loot and celebrating about slaying the dragon and talking about what nifty magic item you're going to buy when you get back to down, the detect magic is inactive because you're not concentrating on maintaining the effect.)

 

[Jack Simth]

I actually think Jack has a point here. If you have detect magic active, by the rules all you need to do to maintain concentration on it is take a single move action per round. When you're actively engaged in a dungeon crawl, you are concentrating on your environment, watching out for threats, and so on. I think it's a natural match. Where I draw the line, though, is the idea that you can maintain that concentration perpetually, such as when you're traveling through town, eating dinner, fording a river, and so on. There are limits to a person's ability to concentrate and, despite the RAW, I think a line would have to be drawn at a certain point. (E.g., when you're leaving the dungeon with your loot and celebrating about slaying the dragon and talking about what nifty magic item you're going to buy when you get back to down, the detect magic is inactive because you're not concentrating on maintaining the effect.)

Concentrating on a spell is actually a defined action - it's a standard action, specifically. So you can Concentrate on Detect Magic while walking up a staircase (walking up stairs is a move action), or while picking an object up off the ground (likewise a move action), but not while searching for or disarming a trap (full-round), taking a swing at someone (attack action or standard action), Light a Torch (full-round) and so on.

Basically, while you can concentrate indefinitely (subject to the limits of the spell's duration), when you're actually in a dungeon/town/whatever, you're going to find yourself with a lot of better things to do ... and you'll probably get the "distracted" penalty to your spot and Listen checks in the meanwhile.

 

[irdeggman]

So... If I say I'm specifically studying the cone starting 30 feet in front of me and ending 60-feet in front of my while I'm walking and concentrating on the spell, I'm fine and can determine whether or not there is any magic in that range while I travel, but If I don't specifically specify I'm doing so, I can't determine whether or not there is any magic in that range while I travel? Isn't that sort of like the DM saying you didn't get a spot check to notice the ambush because you didn't specify you looked up? What does this distinction add to the game?

Not even the same thing.

Spot in this case is a "reflexive" check, Detect Magic is never a reflexive one - but it seems like you want to make it one.

Spot can also be done as an active check taking a move action to do so.

Spot works in a 360 radius Detect Magic only works for things you are "studying", it is not reflexive and never works on things behind you.

When walking are you looking in the same direction always? Or are you most likely looking "around". Does this example help to clarify why you need to say you are looking in (or more specifically studying for any signs of magic) a certain direction/way/object in order to gain the benefits from Detect Magic or does it merely add fodder to the fire of disagreement?

 

[Jack Simth]

Not even the same thing.

Spot in this case is a "reflexive" check, Detect Magic is never a reflexive one - but it seems like you want to make it one.

Spot can also be done as an active check taking a move action to do so.

Spot works in a 360 radius Detect Magic only works for things you are "studying", it is not reflexive and never works on things behind you.

When walking are you looking in the same direction always? Or are you most likely looking "around". Does this example help to clarify why you need to say you are looking in (or more specifically studying for any signs of magic) a certain direction/way/object in order to gain the benefits from Detect Magic or does it merely add fodder to the fire of disagreement?

As apparently you don't like my use of comparisons, let's put my question another way:
What's the practical difference between someone who is directing the spell in front of him while concentrating and moving, and the practical difference between someone who is "studying" the section in front of him while concentrating and moving outside of whether or not detect magic "works" with one but not the other? What does making the distinction add to the game? How does this not end up being a war of semantics and excessive repetition of the same phrase over and over and over similar (but to a lesser extent) to AGC's Illusion Wars? What are the consequences of "studying" an area to other segments of the game (such as, say, Spot checks) that don't apply anyway for simply concentrating on a spell? Where do you pick those consequences from?

 

[irdeggman]

As apparently you don't like my use of comparisons, let's put my question another way:
What's the practical difference between someone who is directing the spell in front of him while concentrating and moving, and the practical difference between someone who is "studying" the section in front of him while concentrating and moving outside of whether or not detect magic "works" with one but not the other? What does making the distinction add to the game? How does this not end up being a war of semantics and excessive repetition of the same phrase over and over and over similar (but to a lesser extent) to AGC's Illusion Wars? What are the consequences of "studying" an area to other segments of the game (such as, say, Spot checks) that don't apply anyway for simply concentrating on a spell? Where do you pick those consequences from?

The practical differences could very easily be justified in a circumstance penalty to a spot check (which you had mentioned early) because of concentration.

If you recall I specifically stated that in my games the caster establishes a "pattern" of behaviour by stating he would "study" an area, then once that pattern is established it remains until specifically changed.

But if you never establish such a pattern then you rely on the DM to interpret what he "thinks" a PC is doing, which in general only leads to trouble.


Now I have no idea what you are trying to do by placing this into other aspects of the game, I am talking about "studying" which is contained in the spell's description. Many people are saying that studying has no in-game meaning, and I disagree - I think that it has no in-game meaning that is different than its normal meaning.

 

[Jack Simth]

The practical differences could very easily be justified in a circumstance penalty to a spot check (which you had mentioned early) because of concentration.

Per the Spot skill, "spotter distracted" is a flat -5 (and, if you read closely, only applies when determining encounter distance). It's defined as "not concentrating on being observant".

So someone concentrating to maintain, say, Summon Swarm isn't concentrating on being observant. Someone simply maintaining Detect Magic is Concentrating, but not on "being observant". What, then, is the mechanical distinction between "studying an area" and not, bearing in mind that both are concentrating on maintaining a spell, and not on "being observant"? Where do you get the penalty to spot from?

If you recall I specifically stated that in my games the caster establishes a "pattern" of behaviour by stating he would "study" an area, then once that pattern is established it remains until specifically changed.

For that, you have to trust that your DM is always fully aware of your abilities and patterns. Have you ever had a DM forget that you had a particular ability when it makes a significant impact on how you act?

But if you never establish such a pattern then you rely on the DM to interpret what he "thinks" a PC is doing, which in general only leads to trouble.

Hence AGC's constant going through with "I disbelieve the..." - specifically to avoid both this problem and the "forgetting" aspect.

Now I have no idea what you are trying to do by placing this into other aspects of the game, I am talking about "studying" which is contained in the spell's description. Many people are saying that studying has no in-game meaning, and I disagree - I think that it has no in-game meaning that is different than its normal meaning.

What's the difference between studying and not-studying in-game? Or rather, if you're going to be doing your "studying" while concentrating anyway, what mechanical advantages are there to *not* studying? Where are you picking up your mechanical distinction? If "studying" has a game-mechanical effect, then "not studying" should also have a game mechanical effect. If there's no benefit to merely maintaining detect magic over using it to "study an area", why would anyone ever use the "merely maintaining" and as a collary, what then is the point of requiring your Wizard player to declare that he's studying the area in front of him as he moves forward down the hallway?