D&D 5E Magic healing of inborn conditions

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I dunno. With True Polymorph a wizard can permanently transform a rusty horseshoe into a tyrannosaurus, but they can't permanently turn someone's eyes blue? It seems like minor cosmetic changes should be a fairly natural fit for, for instance, a transmutation specialist wizard. It runs right on theme with Alter Self, Polymorph, etc.
Not familiar with True Polymorph, but my immediate thought is that there's no way in hell such a spell should be allowed to work on or create a living being. The "broken" alarms ring loud on this.

Turn a rusty horseshoe into a plow or gem or bridge girder? Sure. But not into a living breathing tyrannosaurus. Same with the flip side - turn a tyrannosaurus into a beetle or a tree, no problem, but not into a horseshoe or gem or pane of glass.

And the major drawback with Alter Self and Polymorph is that they are (IME anyway) temporary. (though I'll note I'm used to Poly Self (temp) and Poly Other (perm) being different, with Poly Other being something you only cast on things you want to disable or kill and not something you want to cast on an ally; the WotC editions have made Polymorph far too powerful)
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
🤔 While it might only be temporary, could you use alter self to remove something like innate blindness?
Interesting idea, but I'd say no - ditto for deafness or any other innate condition. Alter Self does just that - turns you into a different version of yourself - and as innate conditions are an intrinsic part of yourself they'll come along for the ride as well.

Now if the blindness or deafness or whatever was an externally imposed condition (e.g. blinded by a spell or deafened by a nearby thunderbolt) that might be a different conversation, though from a game-side standpoint I'd still have two concerns: 1) this is a pretty big side benefit for a low-level spell and 2) this risks trampling the healer's niche even further.
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
Interesting idea, but I'd say no - ditto for deafness or any other innate condition. Alter Self does just that - turns you into a different version of yourself - and as innate conditions are an intrinsic part of yourself they'll come along for the ride as well.

Now if the blindness or deafness or whatever was an externally imposed condition (e.g. blinded by a spell or deafened by a nearby thunderbolt) that might be a different conversation, though from a game-side standpoint I'd still have two concerns: 1) this is a pretty big side benefit for a low-level spell and 2) this risks trampling the healer's niche even further.
but what is an intrinsic part of yourself why would it matter for being blind rather than say your hair colour?
 

Not familiar with True Polymorph, but my immediate thought is that there's no way in hell such a spell should be allowed to work on or create a living being. The "broken" alarms ring loud on this.

Turn a rusty horseshoe into a plow or gem or bridge girder? Sure. But not into a living breathing tyrannosaurus. Same with the flip side - turn a tyrannosaurus into a beetle or a tree, no problem, but not into a horseshoe or gem or pane of glass.

The spell works how it works (not sure if it changed in the 2024 rules though). It's a 9th level spell, to be fair, so you'd expect it to be powerful.

Choose one creature with at least 1 hit point or nonmagical object that you can see within range. You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into an object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature). The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation becomes permanent.

The only limitation is the CR of the end product creature - can't be higher than 9. So no polymorphing your pocket lint into an ancient gold dragon
 

InkTide

Explorer
The spell works how it works (not sure if it changed in the 2024 rules though). It's a 9th level spell, to be fair, so you'd expect it to be powerful.

Choose one creature with at least 1 hit point or nonmagical object that you can see within range. You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into an object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature). The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation becomes permanent.

The only limitation is the CR of the end product creature - can't be higher than 9. So no polymorphing your pocket lint into an ancient gold dragon
Yeah... True Polymorph is not really "True" Polymorph as of some errata quietly added to later printings of the 2014 PHB in around 2016, which has carried into the 2024 PHB. The text, "the transformation becomes permanent," has now become, "the spell lasts until dispelled." RAW it is no longer the actual alteration of form that the 'true' adjective has historically meant - it's just a continuous magical effect. You can dispel it, and it gets suppressed by antimagic fields, because it never stops being a spell. It's not even called a transformation anymore, it's explicitly a spell. Basically a very convincing magical decoration.

Which is... rather missing the point of True Polymorph, I think.

2024 True Polymorph RAW also makes the target permanently mute (even if it's something like a human being True Polymorphed to a dwarf), because they didn't think the wording through very well in their zeal to preempt spellcasters from True Polymorphing themselves into a golem or something I guess. I'm sure that was a real plague at tables.

It also has a size limitation (an object turned into a creature can't be smaller than the creature, and vice versa), which is probably a good change.

The good changes stop there, though, IMO. With errata/2024 RAW, a human who had been True Polymorphed into an elf and is now 150 or so years old would die instantly of old age if they stepped into an antimagic field. Which, again, feels like it's rather missing the point of True Polymorph.

I prefer to ignore that change, and I think a lot of people ignore it without even realizing it because... I mean, it's a 9th level spell called "True Polymorph," not "Bingledooper's Dispellable Shapechange Aura."

(Named after the late wizard Bingledooper, who was sadly slain by an upcasted Dispel Magic that revealed him to have been a polymorphed wooden crate the entire time. He is survived by a length of sturdy rope and a pair of nonmagical tongs, for whom he had wished to create a more permanent solution to inanimate-ness, but alas, did not succeed. If only someone had told him about True True Polymorph during his 60-year-long scholarly career.)
 

TwoSix

Magic 8-ball says "Not Encouraging"
Ignoring RAW and focusing on the narrative of the magic, I think there's some broad agreement around a few principles.

1) The concept of an "intrinisic identity of an individual" exists. That might be a "soul image", a reflection of the self in a mental/spiritual alternate dimension, or just an individual's internal conception of their image. But it definitely exists.

2) Magic that can restore a damaged physical body to match its "intrinsic identity" (i.e healing and restoration) exists and is relatively low-to-mid tier in power.

3) Magic that can change the "intrinsic identity" to provide permanent alterations to form also exists, but is generally mid-to-high tier in power.

So, the question really becomes whether a disability (in whatever form you choose to define that) is part of your "intrinsic identity", or something that is simply bound to your physical form? I think that's a pretty personal question that would have a lot of passionate responses.
 

InkTide

Explorer
So, the question really becomes whether a disability (in whatever form you choose to define that) is part of your "intrinsic identity", or something that is simply bound to your physical form? I think that's a pretty personal question that would have a lot of passionate responses.
I like this interpretation, and I think the Brandon Sanderson system mentioned earlier (i.e. the answer to that personal question is made by the individual being healed and/or changed - so whether healing magic erases a PC's scars is up to the player, for example) lends itself well to taking the answer to that question out of the hands of specific wording in the books.

Though that wording could easily have been put into the PHB or the DMG.

Of course, it's best to ignore recent RAW for a flavor question about this, IMO - a lot of these effects have been pushed towards "the PC's character sheet is the shape of their body and the 'shape' of their soul/'intrinsic identity' in all scenarios" in 5.5e if you go by RAW, for... dubious 'balance' reasons. Giving TTRPG spells video game ability balance patches has never sat well with me, especially for spells that are mechanically deeper than numerical changes. Competitive game/video game balancing very often loses the flavor of abilities over time because flavorful design is not the priority of a balance team. Flavor being secondary to 'balance' in one of the only realms - TTRPGs - where flavor can always be a priority because of DM rulings is something I've never liked about Crawford's design philosophy for rule writing. DM rulings as a crutch to add back removed flavor is not an appealing design approach to me, especially when the resulting balance is dubious at best and still 'broken' at worst. Mearls disagreed with Crawford about True Polymorph, at least around the time it was errata'd, but RAW now reflects Crawford's opinion on it (which differs so explicitly from the text in the 2014 PHB they had to change it multiple times - I'm fairly certain it was first changed to, "the transformation lasts until dispelled," before they eventually replaced "transformation" with "spell.")

They tried to do a similar sort of "not a real transformation" thing with Wild Shape in 2024, and walked it back because people really disliked it, but it wasn't the only thing. Magic Jar is like an extremely convoluted Disguise Self with some physical ability score bonuses (that also requires stealing someone's body and trapping their soul) now. Of course, it retains the potentially instakill vulnerability to Dispel Magic or Antimagic Field that it used to have as balancing, but with little more than a bigger HP pool as the benefit of the spell. Its flavor in 2024 RAW is downright incomprehensible.

Perhaps there is a middle ground here, where something like True Polymorph only remains a spell if the subject doesn't consider their resulting form their 'true' form, so people turned into newts can get better. Unless, of course, they consider themselves a newt now, in which case they already are 'healthy,' so there's nothing for something like Dispel Magic to dispel (or, if the newtification was a 'curse,' even Greater Restoration). This also saves the objects turned into creatures by True Polymorph from being outright killed by Dispel Magic, and may even let stuff like Resurrection spells work on them - and for them to have a consciousness that isn't implied to be eradicated completely by Dispel Magic (because you can't restore the original polymorphed form, even with a new polymorph spell - it'd be a new creature made from the same object).

The way I personally would handle it is, in essence, that a being's 'intrinsic identity' can change with time (but is not forced to), and what effects magic has in regards to that 'intrinsic identity' change - or even vanish altogether - in response. If a disability is considered not part of the 'intrinsic identity' by the target of a healing spell, the healing spell does its best to remedy that where it can - and at higher levels, 'where it can' might mean pretty much any physical ailment. Conversely, if a being's 'intrinsic identity' becomes exactly the form they currently possess... something like healing magic has nothing to change, and even if the form came from a polymorph originally, the polymorph spell is no longer actually making any changes to the underlying being, and thus ceases to exist as a spell on said being. I might add an additional duration to something like True Polymorph - like, say, having the 'intrinsic identity' adjust to the new form over like a month to a year if willing to do so - and have it become the true form of the being afterwards, requiring another True Polymorph to change (and that, potentially, the being in question might never allow the second polymorph to become its 'true' form at all, regardless of time spent polymorphed).

I don't see much real reason to say no to the question the thread presents. If you've got healing magic that replaces surgery, let it do that - hell, even in grittier settings this still works, it might just require a combination of actual surgery and healing magic. The idea that a removed, disability-causing tumor or something might just grow back after it's cut out and healing magic is cast, against the will of both the caster and the target, feels ridiculous to me unless the condition is caused by some magical ailment that healing magic isn't the right tool to deal with. For healing magic to 'remember' the tumor is there on its own, it would need something to go off of... which takes us right back to 'intrinsic identity,' and requires either that the one with the tumor considers the tumor a part of their own body or that the universe at large has decided that the immutable physical identity of the individual with the tumor is "individual with the tumor." I really dislike going the second route for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it's almost invariably inconsistent with itself (i.e. the universe only ever decides that people stay disabled - becoming disabled in such a setting is almost always still on the table, and has no such magical resistance to alteration... until you're trying to remedy it).
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
They tried to do a similar sort of "not a real transformation" thing with Wild Shape in 2024, and walked it back because people really disliked it, but it wasn't the only thing. Magic Jar is like an extremely convoluted Disguise Self with some physical ability score bonuses (that also requires stealing someone's body and trapping their soul) now. Of course, it retains the potentially instakill vulnerability to Dispel Magic or Antimagic Field that it used to have as balancing, but with little more than a bigger HP pool as the benefit of the spell. Its flavor in 2024 RAW is downright incomprehensible.
Even going back to 1e Magic Jar has always been one of those "how the eff is this supposed to work?" spells. I'd not be sorry to see it gone.
Perhaps there is a middle ground here, where something like True Polymorph only remains a spell if the subject doesn't consider their resulting form their 'true' form, so people turned into newts can get better. Unless, of course, they consider themselves a newt now, in which case they already are 'healthy,' so there's nothing for something like Dispel Magic to dispel (or, if the newtification was a 'curse,' even Greater Restoration). This also saves the objects turned into creatures by True Polymorph from being outright killed by Dispel Magic, and may even let stuff like Resurrection spells work on them - and for them to have a consciousness that isn't implied to be eradicated completely by Dispel Magic (because you can't restore the original polymorphed form, even with a new polymorph spell - it'd be a new creature made from the same object).
The bolded puts this into very messy territory on realizing it would allow a Wizard to create a "spirit" or "consciousness" out of nothing; which up till now has been - depending on setting - something only a deity could do.

Flip side: what happens to a creature's spirit or consciousness if the spell is cast the other way, i.e. you turn a living Elf into a ball bearing. Does it completely cease to exist (if yes, that's one hella powerful side-effect!), or does it go to the land of the dead and thus become revivable by other means, or does it stay in the ball bearing meaning that technically that ball bearing is alive?

Also, a spell like this has to have some inherent risk to it if only to prevent it from becoming completely broken; the risk of dying outright to a Dispel Magic or an anti-magic zone works here.
 

InkTide

Explorer
Even going back to 1e Magic Jar has always been one of those "how the eff is this supposed to work?" spells. I'd not be sorry to see it gone.
It's always just looked like a possession spell to me, which I think is fine as a niche, especially in the Necromancy school. It's where Magic Jar juggles PC abilities with the abilities that the body has that it gets nonsensical. 2024 has made it much worse than I've ever seen, though (fairy possessing a goliath can fly and is still small, dragonborn possessing a merfolk retains breath weapon and must hold breath or drown), hence it being little more than a stupidly risky Disguise Self.

The bolded puts this into very messy territory on realizing it would allow a Wizard to create a "spirit" or "consciousness" out of nothing; which up till now has been - depending on setting - something only a deity could do.
Nah, I'm a bit too late to have done that. The wizard creating a consciousness/spirit is just a part of the spell already - the creature is not a magical construct, nor is it a summon. Preventing wizards from creating a consciousness magically is a ship that sailed and sank the moment they gave True Polymorph an "Object to Creature" mode that releases the creature after the concentration duration ends. It is something they can just do, even RAW, unless you rework or remove that mode entirely.

If you don't believe me, consider this: you can True Polymorph a medium-sized chair into a ghost, which in the 2014 MM at least is literally, explicitly... a soul. It is a CR 4 creature made of its own soul-stuff. It crossed the line into messy territory quite a while ago.

To be fair, if said creature isn't now its own being, creating a small army of Gray Slaads following the caster's instructions is now just a few days and medium-sized crates away. It is somewhat necessary for balance with the permanence of the spell.

what happens to a creature's spirit or consciousness if the spell is cast the other way, i.e. you turn a living Elf into a ball bearing.
RAW is actually explicit about this: the elf has no memory of the experience. This means they are effectively in "consciousness stasis" while polymorphed into a ball bearing. What "consciousness stasis" entails exactly is the kind of question that deals psychic damage.

a spell like this has to have some inherent risk to it if only to prevent it from becoming completely broken
To clarify, I'm trying to balance the duration of that risk, because many of these creatures can live for a long time - I agree it's a completely reasonable risk for a while, I just don't think it being permanent for the lifetime of the resulting creature is reasonable. And I'd probably lean towards the idea that the higher mental stats the creature has, the faster it 'becomes itself,' so to speak. And thinking on it further, I'd probably have Dispel Magic become less of a risk as that time passed. Possibly a +1 to the DC per long rest, until the risk went away altogether at, say, DC 50 minus the creature's highest mental stat.

Remember, the new creature isn't the caster and isn't just a lackey for the caster - a risk to the creature itself doesn't really feel like much of a risk to the spell unless the players are attached to the character, in which case I'd rather have the solution be "keep Mittens (who has since decided her real name is Miirthriinsaryx) - the silver dragon wyrmling who semi-reluctantly (but voluntarily) follows the party and used to be a wooden wardrobe - away from Dispel Magic for the next [reasonable duration]" than "keep Mittens away from Dispel Magic for the rest of the campaign and/or her 1200+ year natural life."

Lots of things one can do to balance that pose a risk to the party, rather than a very specific and unchanging existential risk to a resulting NPC. If the party is making too many NPCs... just have the NPCs leave. They can choose to do that, RAW. You can even make them hostile when the hour is up. Maybe the party got super lucky with Mittens.

(We may have gotten a little off topic here.)
 

TwoSix

Magic 8-ball says "Not Encouraging"
The bolded puts this into very messy territory on realizing it would allow a Wizard to create a "spirit" or "consciousness" out of nothing; which up till now has been - depending on setting - something only a deity could do.
I'll be honest; considering that this would be happening in a level 17+ game, "where did that new soul come from" is exactly the sort of story I'd want to be exploring at that point.
 

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