Improving the half-elf

[Omnifarious Grey]

Half-elves in 4e are just plain weak. They get fewer than half the perks that any other race gets. I suggest two simple solutions that won't require you to rewrite your NPCs.
1) Allow a half-elf to apply a +2 bonus to any two ability scores of his choice, instead of to Constitution and Charisma. This reflects an inheritance of human adaptability, and lets you customize them to be more elf-like if you want to add the bonuses to Dexterity and Wisdom. Wrt NPCs, you can simply assume a typical half-elf chooses to apply the bonuses to Consitution and Charisma.
2) Allow a half-elf to take a free elf or human feat of his choice. This simply supplements the rule that allows a half-elf to take these feats. Again, you can use this to make your character more elf-like or more human-like.

I hope, for the sake of my sanity, that you are joking.


I thought we were talking about fixing/rewriting a race, not breaking them outright.

 

[Psikus]

Yeah, half-elf bard works.
I like the idea of half-elves getting an at-will from another class actually at-will.

It is interesting, but I feel that if they got an at-will as an at-will, then it would be a bit much really. I feel they probably thought about the power fairly well and didn't want it to get abusive.

I think dilettante is a great concept, but falls a bit short as the only useful feature of the half-elf. Maybe they had it as an at-will at first, and toned it down late in development - This would explain early preview characters with an extra at-will, and the general lack of support for the half-elf.

Maybe we could make the half-elf work without rewriting anything? Adding a few racial feats that expanded on their versatile, multiclass nature (rather than the 'cooperation and tiny group bonuses' shtick, which they alredy have plenty of) might work wonders.

Consider these feats:

- Improved Dilettante (requires half elf, dilettante racial feature). Choose an additional 1st-level at-will attack power from a class different from yours. This can't be a class you have already chosen for dilettante. You can use that power as an encounter power.

- Half-elven versatility (requires half elf). Choose a multiclass feat from a class different from yours. You gain the benefits of that feat. This doesn't count towards your normal limit of multiclass feats.

What do you think? This gives half-elves a potent tool, expands on current flavor and mechanics, and doesn't look, at first sight, as degenerate as at-will Dilettantes (eyebiting paladins, anyone?).

 

[Kzach]

What do you think? This gives half-elves a potent tool, expands on current flavor and mechanics, and doesn't look, at first sight, as degenerate as at-will Dilettantes (eyebiting paladins, anyone?).

Although I definitely like the idea of having more half-elven focused feats, I also believe that they are needed regardless of changes and don't really factor into the power of the race.

In addition, I don't feel it solves the problem I have with the race as a whole, which is to say that, IMO, it's weak compared to other races and simply doesn't fit the whole "born of two worlds, welcome in neither" angsty, outcast schtick and nor does the current build represent either parent race very well.

For my money, I think the final write-up I'm going to use is as follows:

+2 Dexterity.
+2 to any other stat.
Dilettante (as written).
Fey Origin (as written).
Human, elven, eladrin or half-elven feats.
Common & Elven known plus one more language.

I really feel this is balanced and reasonable and suits them well. It definitely favours rogue, but that also sits well with how I view them. This probably doesn't work as well in a setting like Forgotten Realms or Eberron where every race and their dog can be a PC race and is galavanting all over the place as if every city is Sigil, but then again, I don't use either of those settings so for me, the half-elf is special and different because of his origins.

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

Although I definitely like the idea of having more half-elven focused feats, I also believe that they are needed regardless of changes and don't really factor into the power of the race.

In addition, I don't feel it solves the problem I have with the race as a whole, which is to say that, IMO, it's weak compared to other races and simply doesn't fit the whole "born of two worlds, welcome in neither" angsty, outcast schtick and nor does the current build represent either parent race very well.

For my money, I think the final write-up I'm going to use is as follows:

+2 Dexterity.
+2 to any other stat.
Dilettante (as written).
Fey Origin (as written).
Human, elven, eladrin or half-elven feats.
Common & Elven known plus one more language.

I really feel this is balanced and reasonable and suits them well. It definitely favours rogue, but that also sits well with how I view them. This probably doesn't work as well in a setting like Forgotten Realms or Eberron where every race and their dog can be a PC race and is galavanting all over the place as if every city is Sigil, but then again, I don't use either of those settings so for me, the half-elf is special and different because of his origins.

Again, having both a static +2 bonus to a stat, as well as a +2 to any other stat is too powerful. You say they are underpowered, but instead of finding a mid-point, you are stretching the race to be overpowered as is. If you dislike the con, switch is to dex. Otherwise you are treading into territory that you don't understand.

The race is out and wizards, despite what you think, took time to balance the classes as best as possible. What you are doing is pushing that balance a bit too much with the +2 to any other stat. You need to find another way around this otherwise the race is too powerful as it will stand.



However, you can ultimately do what you want in the end and no one can change that. I am just trying to help you understand what you will be doing if you implement the race as such.

 

[Garthanos]

Again, having both a static +2 bonus to a stat, as well as a +2 to any other stat is too powerful. You say they are underpowered, but instead of finding a mid-point, you are stretching the race to be overpowered as is.

Hmmm ... just making the +2 variable means the race is versatile and will be useful for any class for which DEX is useful (and since CON is always somewhat useful) .. in what fashion exactly does this versatility make it imbalancingly "powerful", I am certain I am missing some ramification.

It does step on human toes in my opinion but my favorite ability of humans is getting the extra at-will, but I am curious about your definitions of "powerful"

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

Hmmm ... just making the +2 variable means the race is versatile and will be useful for any class for which DEX is useful (and since CON is always somewhat useful) .. in what fashion exactly does this versatility make it imbalancingly "powerful", I am certain I am missing some ramification.

It does step on human toes in my opinion but my favorite ability of humans is getting the extra at-will, but I am curious about your definitions of "powerful"

There is a reason why humans only get a single +2 to any stat. If you give that ability to a class as well as a static +2 to another stat, you are allowing for such a race to be more useful and versatile than any other.

Yes you may want to pick a different race for other features, but if you are going stat-wise, then there is no real reason to not take half-elf because of the sheer versatility it gives to be in any single class.

Most races are built to be ideal for a select number of classes. You can always end up making a character that uses a non-ideal race for a class, and that is often when you get into fun role-playing. However, in terms of optimization, having a race that can fill the role for any class that uses dexterity either as a primary or secondary stat is too much. Humans are supposed to be the filler race, one that can be taken to help any class, and they provide versatility to boot. What is happening here though is you are redesigning a race that probably was looked at for a long time before being made and you now are essentially making it better than a human in most of the aspects that matter.

 

[Garthanos]

There is a reason why humans only get a single +2 to any stat. If you give that ability to a class as well as a static +2 to another stat, you are allowing for such a race to be more useful and versatile than any other.

Yes you may want to pick a different race for other features, but if you are going stat-wise, then there is no real reason to not take half-elf because of the sheer versatility it gives to be in any single class

That is an important phrase though and it starts with an IF... now lets assume most people do look at multiple reasons to take a race.

Turned around it becomes if your class uses Dex as a primary or secondary (how many classes does that cover) AND other races don't have things that interest or offer you more... now the original poster seems to think they might all offer things you would like more ( I love humans myself so my commenting that it steps on human toes... was more severe than I implied and is reason enough for me to want a different gift for half elves)

I think of the human defense ability the recompense for getting only one ability at +2 (it is kind of like having defense only +2 on 3 attributes) and the half elf group diplomacy... umm wierd... if you ditch the group diplomacy schtick. compensating with a more human like thing ... humans suck at diplomacy IRL ;-) or compensating with a more elven like thing ... what are they getting now that is elf like? low light vision?

you now are essentially making it better than a human in most of the aspects that matter.

Humans in my universe have reincarnative memories (sometimes mistaken as Genius) to make up for the long term benefits of some longer life spanned races. Since D&D lifespans are mostly a roleplayed feature rather than a mechanical one... its probably ignorable but I wouldnt mind a mechanical effect say feats to reflect it.

 

[Garthanos]

. compensating with a more human like thing ... humans suck at diplomacy IRL ;-)

In case it was missed, since we have a complete lack of anything to compare human diplomacy with IRL, this is pretty close to nonsensical, in a fantasy universe diplomacy could be something humans are known for.

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

Turned around it becomes if your class uses Dex as a primary or secondary (how many classes does that cover) AND other races don't have things that interest or offer you more... now the original poster seems to think they might all offer things you would like more ( I love humans myself so my commenting that it steps on human toes... was more severe than I implied and is reason enough for me to want a different gift)

I think of the human defense ability the recompense for getting only one ability at +2 (it is kind of like having defense only +2 on 3 attributes) and the half elf group diplomacy... umm wierd... if you ditch the group diplomacy schtick. compensating with a more human like thing ... humans suck at diplomacy IRL ;-) or compensating with a more elven like thing ... what are they getting now that is elf like? low light vision?

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to change the half-elf. However, this is similar to wanting to change humans, for example. Someone may not like how humans are depicted in 4e. Perhaps they feel that humans are naturally tougher than a lot of races due to short lives and hardy work environments so they want to give them a +2 to Con. They do like the versatility of humans so they keep the +2 to another stat. They then decide to compensate for this by eliminating the +1 to all defenses. So is this race still balanced?

I understand that not every race uses Dex. (6 as primary/secondary roughly). However, any character can benefit from an inherent +1 to reflex or initiative. The issue stands that while getting a bonus to defenses is nice, that is all that it is. While a bonus to Dex. as a primary stat also grants you a bonus to attacks and damage, which a human could do by choosing Dex. for the bonus, but then half-elfs beat them out with a bonus to Con. for example, to get +2 HP another healing surge and perhaps Fort. defense.

Humans in my universe have reincarnative memories (sometimes mistaken as Genius) to make up for the long term benefits of some longer life spanned races. Since D&D lifespans are mostly a roleplayed feature rather than a mechanical one... its probably ignorable but I wouldnt mind a mechanical effect say feats to reflect it.

This is the issue. People expect their races to play a certain way and understand them as such. The OP doesn't get the Con. or Cha. mechanics of the Half-elves. I understood them to be their based on human resilience (Con.) and being between two different societies and trying to cope with them (Cha. and diplomacy). The thing is, is a half-elf truely half of an elf and half of a human? Why would they be as good as elves who have been in the forest all their lives or as adaptable as humans, when the half-elves get rejected from these societies?

Visualizing how the Half-elf should be is the issue. If you don't agree with how the makers made them in 4e it is understandable. However, to hack two races together does not seem like a solution to me.

I only see this "solution" as being an issue for any game that is played by many or is going to head away from role-playing (powergaming). Otherwise there might not be any real issues and everyone can be happy.

I was just saying that from a mechanically viewpoint having the Human bonus as well as another static bonus was not a good idea and was not thought out.

 

[Garthanos]

The half elves high con and cha is kind of the inverse to a real life occurance it is the opposite of why marrying cousins is a bad thing. ;-). (they result in unhealthy with a side of ugly way too often) extrapolate the inverse then add socially adaptable mixed culture individuals and we have a fair argument for healthy diplomats.... elven magic enables others to exploit there perceptions... in this case its social perceptions.

It makes sense and some say represents Tanis, but isnt everyones cup of tea.