4e Change of mind

[Dannager]

I don't know about 'objective evidence', but my 'Barnes & Nobles Test' (How much space is devoted to RPG's? What percentage of that is D&D?) suggests that D&D is in a weaker position now in the market than it has been in about 10 years.

I don't know what you're talking about. My local B&N within the last year went from locating their RPGs on half a shelf next to the manga and comic books on the second floor to two entire shelves near the entrance with its own section label of "Role Playing Games".

 

[Dannager]

Given what objective evidence we have of 4th Edition's early success and following decline less than a year in, threads like this have little purpose, if any.

You don't have any objective evidence of its decline. Stop pretending that you do.

 

[dontmazemebro]

I had high hopes for 4E, and it delivered.

I barely even played D&D before 4E, the game was simply too unwieldy. I have a huge Planescape collection I read for recreation, but never used in an actual game. I played a little 3E, but it just didn't click for my group. We're a group of smart guys who couldn't stand the stupid rules. The system was convoluted, the classes were grossly imbalanced, and DM'ing was far too time consuming.

During my group's 3E phase, we'd frequently discuss how we would improve D&D if we were in charge. When we got a hold of the 4E preview books it was as if the WotC had tape recorded our conversations! As a former Planescape fan I was thrilled to see the much improved and usable cosmology (especially the Elemental Chaos). My only concern with 4E is that they didn't go far enough! For instance, silly holdovers such as alignment still persist (luckily only in a diminished capacity).

4E is an awesome system. I love that teamwork and tactics now matter. However, the class balance was the selling point for me.

 

[Dausuul]

My overall opinion of the game was positive to start with and has remained so. That said, I have begun to notice the flaws in the system more, especially the tendency toward "grindspace" in certain types of combat and the weaknesses of the encounter/daily system. (I think it was a mistake not to include some means of recharging encounter powers, and am considering a house-rule on the subject.)

 

[BryonD]

You don't have any objective evidence of its decline. Stop pretending that you do.

Heh, how about you stop pretending you have a clue what I do or don't have?

 

[Rel]

I've threadbanned one person already. Any further threadcrapping and sniping is going to be dealt with more harshly.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Overall opinion: 4e was no steps forward, no steps back. It was two or three steps sideways.

I kind of love that description. 4e is awesome in some ways, is narmtastic in others, but is very much a different kind of game.

In the evolutionary analogy, 4e seems to just be a mutation -- something that has evolved differently all of a sudden. Some of the mutations are beneficial, some are bad, and whether or not overall it is positive is a little sketchy still (won't really know until 5e, I guess ).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I haven´t played a lot 4th edition, and i still have to feel comfortable with damage doesn´t mean damage but exhaustion (a logical step actually, sry) but i can wholehartedly say:

D&D 3.0 introduced many cool things, rules etc... i grew up as DM with 3.0, but all those options I was given with rules for everything which i liked at the beginning has caused me a lot of headaches... It stopped beeing a headacke, when i reinvented DM Fiat, and dismissed most splatbooks...

D&D 3.5 is one of the finest systems out there, and I personally still believe i will like 4th edition... but wth my actual tme constraints and errated PHBs not available (the number of errors supposedly caused by nerdrage and following emergency changes) are still a deal breaker...
... and I actually believe this was WotC´s fault trying to please the wrong people...

so i have to wait a bit still^^ erratad rules seem mostly fine, PHB 2 classes do too... the bard is so cool...

holding vote until next month at least... maybe till end of this year

 

[Obryn]

Look at the poll here: the haters still hating and the lovers still loving doesn't say anything, but 22% of those who were initially excited changed their mind while only 6% of those who initially didn't like it changed their mind. As time goes on, more people decide they don't like it than decide they do. I only hope it doesn't kill the DND franchise all together. The dwindling excitement coupled with a rough economy means there's a real good chance Hasbro will drop the line all together. Best case scenerio is that a company like Paizo or Mongoose will pick buy it, worste case scenerio is that nobody buys it and it just ceases to exist.

(1) As was pointed out several times, a poll on ENWorld cannot be extrapolated to the general population. It will tell you something about the people on ENWorld who feel like taking the time to answer a poll, but it's a self-selecting population in at least these two ways.

(2) I don't know if this is the only interpretation of the poll numbers, even if we allow that it's valid for this population. At what point does someone need to have been Positive to select the "Positive, then Negative" answer? Right when it was announced? While the first previews were coming out? While the latter batch of previews were coming out? (Similar concerns apply to "Negative, then Positive" and, to a lesser extent, the other options.)

So, even if you accept that the poll is a valid sample for ENWorld, it tells you very little due to the ambiguity of the question.

-O

 

[chaotix42]

I don't know what you're talking about. My local B&N within the last year went from locating their RPGs on half a shelf next to the manga and comic books on the second floor to two entire shelves near the entrance with its own section label of "Role Playing Games".

Yeah, and my closest B&N never supported RPGs that much - just an individual shelf or two. Now they have one of those revolving book stands with 4e books on them out in the middle of the aisle.

Not much, but have some more anecdotal evidence for the fire.