Floating Powers (Was: WoTC March 2009 Editorial Calendar)

[WalterKovacs]

Utility powers, simply by the number that you get of them over time, are definitely the area that is easiest to go "out" of class on. Part of the problem with a choice of utility (like Channel Divinity) is that there are different types of utility (at-will, encounter and daily). You'd almost have to go the wizard route of forcing the change each morning, which may be useful in some situations (i.e. you know it's going to be a non-combat "day", so prepare the skill challenge/social interaction/etc type things).

One thing though, rituals have their place as well as a sort of shared skill based utility power pool, so that's another area that could be explored (and with the alchemy stuff, they could potentially have other types of pseudo-rituals).

 

[Klaus]

Forked from: WoTC March 2009 Editorial Calendar



So, what do you envision these powers doing for the game? What do you envision them doing for your character?

There's been some internal discussion about such powers, which we've avoided so far for a variety of reasons. General powers don't support what the class is supposed to be doing (you can't build a general power to a role), and if you start taking general powers then you lose out on powers that speak to your role. Plus, generic powers are more likely to be less than exciting (by definition, the power needs to be generally applicable to multiple methods of use), and as such they might be just "more of the same" compared to existing powers. Generic powers also have the greater potential to produce more broken combinations, as you have to balance them against every class, every build, etc. instead of just the builds for a single class. Certain classes are built to function a certain way, and generic powers might not jive with that, or might produce what we call the nonbo (the negative version of the combo).

So, convince me why we should do generic powers, what you see them doing, what function they serve, etc. Despite all of the stuff I posted above, I'm not convinced there isn't room for them; I just am not sure what place they're supposed to have in the game. For the sake of discussion, let's say you're a designer/developer. What do you do with them?

Can I show you the article I proposed to Dragon?

 

[RandomCitizenX]

I could see several different ways to implement floating powers depending on how many degrees of generic you want to encourage. Utility fits best with the completely generic, racial, and the skill training tied powers, but I could also see power source and role based powers especially since they already exist for paragon paths. The one I think I would like to see the most would be skill based powers. They have the most potential to expand on a system which I really enjoy.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm not a HUGE fan of the "switch out powers" idea, just because that's some probably-unnecessary bookkeeping. Once you have the powers, you have the powers. There's enough to keep track of with the powers you actually have, let alone switching them out.

"Floating Powers" might be super-fine to add some noncombat variety, but part of the problem with 4e noncombat is that it's too much "everyone can do everything," and the concept of floating powers (that anyone can take them) exacerbates, rather than solves, this problem. Though if you limit them by power source or race or skills or something, you might get a good level of granularity, so that might work anyway.

I'm really liking floating utilities. If utilities aren't really part of your role/class/build suite to begin with, there'd be no harm in making utilities that EVERYONE can access instead of your normal utilities (and here, arranging them by power source or skill training would make a lot of sense, and can add variety).

The idea of using AP came mostly from the whole "we don't want them to build a character around these abilities" angle, keeping the ability rare. That rarity also allowed it to be pretty significant when it did happen, and so, Moments of Glory. If you'd rather they play a more toned-down role than a crowning moment of badass awesome role, the "floating powers" seem best suited to utility powers. Using AP isn't really critical to the idea, just something I thought would reflect the rarity and awesomeness of these heroic moments.

 

[arscott]

What about having the powers actually work differenty depending on a character's role? After all, you already have class powers that work differently depending on a character's build, and that's something that extends outward pretty easily.

It's an idea I explored in my abandoned 4e superhero project

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Another idea that came to me was to make attack powers "generic", and give them a role-specific extra bonus.
For example, an arcane burst power might deal some extra damage if used by a Striker, but a Controller gets some extra radius. Used by a Defender, it might mark or just cause a penalty to attacks, used by a Leader it grants a bonus to attacks.

What about having the powers actually work differenty depending on a character's role? After all, you already have class powers that work differently depending on a character's build, and that's something that extends outward pretty easily.

It's an idea I explored in my abandoned 4e superhero project

Abandoned?

You make me a sad panda...

 

[The Green Adam]

Another idea that came to me was to make attack powers "generic", and give them a role-specific extra bonus.
For example, an arcane burst power might deal some extra damage if used by a Striker, but a Controller gets some extra radius. Used by a Defender, it might mark or just cause a penalty to attacks, used by a Leader it grants a bonus to attacks.

This is actually an intriguing idea. Best one I've heard in a while for making more 4E more fun and less "I do the same thing is round I do every round".

Not a fan of 4E primarily because of its 'roles' concept, at least powers of this nature would make playing a dedicated role more appealing. You could do something different then your usual 'at-will' abilities that still plays a vital part in the action and may be just a bit unexpected (by the GM).

Kudos, Mustrum!
AD

 

[Hawke]

A couple of thoughts...

First, I wonder if my initial praise for floating powers might've been misplaced curiosity about power sources having very little mechanically differentiating them... and I thought it might be a solution to have powers be sourced but unclassed.

I agree the utility powers are the best option for this, and think that the idea of keying them to skill training (acrobatics / tumble as an example) is great. Perhaps the idea could be expanded by spending a feat that allows you to swap a utility from a class of the same power source? I seem to remember someone in my group interested in tumble that wasn't able to pick it up otherwise.

As far as source based stuff - I definitely can see Martial having a great use for unclassed powers based along weapons. I love what they've done with weapons so far, but don't see many balance issues for typing them to martial. I like how divine has the option for deity-based powers, though I'm not sure what primal and arcane could have that would be their counterpart for weapon-powers.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Another idea that came to me was to make attack powers "generic", and give them a role-specific extra bonus.
For example, an arcane burst power might deal some extra damage if used by a Striker, but a Controller gets some extra radius. Used by a Defender, it might mark or just cause a penalty to attacks, used by a Leader it grants a bonus to attacks.

If you're adding these to the game, then you kind of slam up against the "same stuff, different name" problem where the power isn't diverse enough in what it does to make it interesting. "Oh joy, another attack that lets me give others a bonus..." sort of thing. Depending on the power, not always, and maybe not severely enough to make it an issue, but it's something to watch out for.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

Forked from: WoTC March 2009 Editorial Calendar



So, what do you envision these powers doing for the game? What do you envision them doing for your character?

There's been some internal discussion about such powers, which we've avoided so far for a variety of reasons. General powers don't support what the class is supposed to be doing (you can't build a general power to a role), and if you start taking general powers then you lose out on powers that speak to your role. Plus, generic powers are more likely to be less than exciting (by definition, the power needs to be generally applicable to multiple methods of use), and as such they might be just "more of the same" compared to existing powers. Generic powers also have the greater potential to produce more broken combinations, as you have to balance them against every class, every build, etc. instead of just the builds for a single class. Certain classes are built to function a certain way, and generic powers might not jive with that, or might produce what we call the nonbo (the negative version of the combo).

So, convince me why we should do generic powers, what you see them doing, what function they serve, etc. Despite all of the stuff I posted above, I'm not convinced there isn't room for them; I just am not sure what place they're supposed to have in the game. For the sake of discussion, let's say you're a designer/developer. What do you do with them?

Two words - Stunts Personified.

I envision "floating powers" as tied to your trained skills. If you're trained in a skill, you can pick up an additional power in exchange for a feat that operates as an Encounter power (to keep within the design principles of 4e's feat for an encounter power). Offer one type of power for each skill at Heroic, Paragon and Epic.