Floating Powers (Was: WoTC March 2009 Editorial Calendar)

[jensun]

Two words - Stunts Personified.

I envision "floating powers" as tied to your trained skills. If you're trained in a skill, you can pick up an additional power in exchange for a feat that operates as an Encounter power (to keep within the design principles of 4e's feat for an encounter power). Offer one type of power for each skill at Heroic, Paragon and Epic.

If you do decide to go down this route can I please aslk that we see some more powers which feed directly into the skill challenge system.

We have a few already but they are few and far between.

 

[Plane Sailing]

There's been some internal discussion about such powers, which we've avoided so far for a variety of reasons. General powers don't support what the class is supposed to be doing (you can't build a general power to a role), and if you start taking general powers then you lose out on powers that speak to your role.

The comment I've quoted reflects what appears to be a change in intention for roles as compared to earlier things I'm sure I remember reading by Mike Mearls (but I can't cite at the moment, unfortunately).

My recollection is that all classes are designed to be able to fulfil their roles without trying, and that they can shape their other powers more as they wish. This is clearly true for the majority of the PHB classes, since with the possible exception of the wizard they all have class features which allow them to fulfil their primary role very nicely.

However, the comment you've just made suggests "Restrictions, not options", which seems to be an increasingly common view - it suggests that they should only have powers which support their role, thus locking classes more and more into a particular role and reducing the variety of class builds that a player can choose.

So I would argue that you could have a whole range of powers which are general and useful to anyone with a particular power source which don't necessarily fit a particular role (or cross over roles).

So you could have a warlord-ish leader-ish power which would be an interesting general power which could be taken by any martial character who would like a bit of ability to shift their mates around without becoming a full-blown warlord multiclass. A power which allows an off-hand dagger to be used to make a basic attack as a minor action could similarly be interesting and useful to a wide range of martial classes.

Similarly there could be divine prayers or arcane spells which are equally appropriate to any of the classes with the requisite power source.

This isn't such a strange suggestion - if you look closely you see some strikerish powers in the fighter list, leaderish powers in the paladin list, controllerish powers in the warlord list and cleric list, strikerish powers in the wizard list.

i.e. the power lists for the classes already include some powers which are outside a main role and into a secondary role. Why not have some 'General' powers then which fit the power source theme and could be open to anyone with that particular power source?

Cheers

 

[RodneyThompson]

However, the comment you've just made suggests "Restrictions, not options", which seems to be an increasingly common view - it suggests that they should only have powers which support their role, thus locking classes more and more into a particular role and reducing the variety of class builds that a player can choose.

I think you may be reading a bit too much into what I've said. Certainly, we want class powers to feel like they belong within a class, but it's mostly for just that--feel. It definitely makes powers feel same-y across classes if they just do a generic thing and don't speak to the class's feel. Role is definitely one of the bigger factors that helps describe a class's feel, so when I say, "a power that speaks to a role" I'm really saying, "a power that feels like it belongs in this class."

I think if you look at the powers that are coming out--especially in books like Martial Power, which has the very striker-y tempest fighter--you'll see that powers don't necessarily have to fit within a role. At the same time, I think it's generally a good thing if your class powers support your class role, or at least your class features. And it's not just to make sure you do your job, it's also to protect the jobs of others. If I'm a fighter that does the warlord thing as well as a warlord, why have a warlord at all? Why not have another leader?

So I would argue that you could have a whole range of powers which are general and useful to anyone with a particular power source which don't necessarily fit a particular role (or cross over roles).

I agree...because those already exist. Channel Divinity feats, weapon-specific pseudo-multiclassing, etc. They are already out there. However, I don't think it's "Restrictions, not Options" to say that we've tried to not let it get out of hand with how many of your class powers you can replace. We still want a fighter to have some fighter powers, even if he is a Dhampyr fighter who specializes in the bolas and has replaced 6 or so powers with non-class powers.

I don't think Mike ever said, "We don't care what powers a character has!" I think, instead, what he likely said was that a class' class features pull the lion's share of the role fulfillment, so we have more flexibility on what we can do with powers...and we've done so with things like multiclassing, weapon powers, and bloodlines.

My point in starting this thread was because I wanted to see what people wanted out of this idea of generic powers that don't fit into those structures. I'm not convinced there's no room for them, but I do want to make sure they fit into a good place and have a good purpose in the game.

What purpose do those generic powers serve that isn't already served by multiclassing or bloodlines or the other methods of gaining non-class powers?

 

[Obryn]

I'll just poke my nose in and say that I think single-feat power-swapping for specific races sounds like a pretty good idea. And yes, the Utility Powers are the best candidates for this, I think.

With that said, I think the race-specific powers should be a step up from the general ones. After all, there's a big cost to taking them - a feat and an existing power.

Also, while I like the multiclassing rules, I think there's a danger with using them for absolutely everything. Right now, feats (especially at Heroic tier) are pretty cheap. That is, there aren't that many great ones. As more and more options become available, multiclassing will have a bigger and bigger opportunity cost. As it stands, a multiclass power costs a feat + a power. When these additional powers aren't any better than your existing power, it adds up to quite a cost for what amounts to deeper characterization.

-O

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think you may be reading a bit too much into what I've said.

OK, fair enough.

What purpose do those generic powers serve that isn't already served by multiclassing or bloodlines or the other methods of gaining non-class powers?

You could call it mini-multiclassing. Not the same cost as full multiclassing (two feat minimum), but you don't get something as powerful as one of the powers you'd get from full multiclassing. I tried to convey this with my examples above

"So you could have a warlord-ish leader-ish power which would be an interesting general power which could be taken by any martial character who would like a bit of ability to shift their mates 1 square without becoming a full-blown warlord multiclass. A power which allows an off-hand dagger to be used to make a basic attack as a minor action could similarly be interesting and useful to a wide range of martial classes."

Cheers

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

What purpose do those generic powers serve that isn't already served by multiclassing or bloodlines or the other methods of gaining non-class powers?

I don't think there is a purpose that I can think of other than if your goal is specifically to dilute the classes. If you want classes to mean less, then generic powers help you to take more powers that fit other roles and make your character a less typical member of his/her class.

If you want classes to mean more, you limit the ways that a character can swap his class powers for generic or multiclass powers.

I think it's purely a matter of focus. I like the current level and don't feel there is a need for generic powers. If you wanted to turn the game into a more "point based" system where you build your character using a bunch of powers in order to create your own "feel", then generic powers make sense.

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

Attempts to cast 'Resurrect Thread'

Rodney - hope you see this

I've been thinking about this for a while now and have identified what I think would be desirable but not system-subverting 'floating' powers. I'm tentatively referring to them as "Narrative Control" powers - powers that let the players grab hold of the story for a moment without using numbers. Here is an example of one you have right now - Oath of the Relentless Hunter (Avenger Utility). "Until you use this power on a different target, you can take a standard action to determine the distance and the direction to the target. The distance and the direction are based on a straight line between you and the target, ignoring any barriers. If the target is on a different plane from you, you know which plane but gain no other information." It doesn't refer to squares, attacking, damage, concealment, anything. Sure you CAN use it on the battlefield, but it's far more useful outside of combat, as a plot device or as part of a skill challenge.

Another example would be something like this:
Oh, You Mean THIS Key?
Daily, Free * Martial
Prerequisite: 13 Dex, must be trained in Theivery
Effect: When you use this power, you reveal a small, non-unique item that you pilfered from an NPC. The item is determined when the power is used, not at the time the pickpocketing would have taken place.

Some people want a '+5 to Theivery checks' power for trap disabling, pickpocketing more expensive stuff, sleight of hand, etc; a more well-rounded skill monkey. As a character gimmick or trope - say for a kleptomaniac type of character - this would be a fun floating power any class could use with the proper requirements and would encourage the integration of powers and roleplaying that some have trouble doing with so many attack-oriented powers.

Consider also:
Gettin' the Heck Out of Dodge
Daily, Full * Martial
Prerequisite: Trained in Athletics, can not be wearing heavy armor
Effect: If you are pursued by enemies whose base speed is within 1 of yours for at least one minute, you outrun them and find a safe hiding spot. Your allies must still escape by other means.

A little rough around the edges, I'm sure, but you get the idea.

 

[Hadrian the Builder]

Forked from: WoTC March 2009 Editorial Calendar

So, what do you envision these powers doing for the game? What do you envision them doing for your character?

So, convince me why we should do generic powers, what you see them doing, what function they serve, etc. Despite all of the stuff I posted above, I'm not convinced there isn't room for them; I just am not sure what place they're supposed to have in the game. For the sake of discussion, let's say you're a designer/developer. What do you do with them?

First of all, thanks for coming here and talking with us.

I hope I can make the thrust of my point without getting too verbose.

Bottom Line: Flexibility and diverse options.

I agree that alot of what supports the classes primary role resides in the class features. Although powers are significant, you can't count on them for supporting the role entirely because multi-classing is a factor.

I think we've noticed that most classes have a primary role and they lean towards a secondary, or they have a choice of secondary leanings. Generic powers could help players lean more heavily towards a style, trusting in class features to protect the class flavor and role.

examples: The rogue's "striker" role resides in sneak attack, a class feature. The fighter's "defender" role resides in combat challenge. A paladin, divine challenge...

Powers, on the other hand, really help the character shape his secondary role (I think) (like dual strike (More striker) vs. tide of iron (More defender))

I want more flexibility in my power selection and some freedom from some of the ability score problems I see with multi-classing currently.

I don't want to have to multi-class to barbarian or fighter (as a Paladin, eg); because, I want to focus on charging at foes, or engaging multiple targets at once, or dueling a single foe or whatever. I want tactical style options without picking up another class's flavor.

I want to see some encounter level generic (or "basic") moves like "basic trip", and an encounter-level "charge" , encounter-level "bull rush". (I've got lots of ideas, but I will spare the details here)

In addition, heroic tier just doesn't have enough at-will and encounter power options. A 1st level character can do 2 "neat things" before they hit the "At-will grind". A 20th level character can do 13 "neat things" before they are down to at-will powers only.

In between those extremes is alot of room to create new options. Generic power options and generic encounter-level basic combat attacks can fill some of the boring spaces.

 

[Armadillo]

Aren't "floating powers" called feats?

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

not really - a power is daily, at-will or encounter based. A feat is an 'always on' background thing. Some feats grant powers, like the Channel Divinity or Fey Trickster feats.