What Games do you think are Neotrad?

thefutilist

Explorer
Yeah, I don't think RPG analysis is about deciding that my pleasure in adorning my character, Super Beetle, with a stock inconsequential secret identity subplot is 'dysfunctional'. It might not meet your goals for Narrativist play, but it could be entirely functional and intended neo-trad play. I think there's probably a question about identifying Zilch Play in here somewhere though...
I know that I needed to do good genre play before I could consider the merits, or not, of Story Now.

I think the big thing is that OC and Genre play provide wish fulfilment in a way that Story Now doesn't. Which is a really big deal because it changes the fundamental nature of the activity.

So would I personally call it dysfunctional? No not really.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

thefutilist

Explorer
Just for a fun, here’s an attack on Narrativism from a genre/oc play perspective.

Art requires the artist to have a point, to make a statement about what it is to be human under these conditions. Having a statement isn’t something done by committee. There is no communal creation of art. Sure, people can contribute when the artist has had his vision. In film, a variety of people work together to create a piece. That’s not what I’m talking about though. It’s the act of making the statement in the first place. It’s that which is personal.

In Narrativist play, The group can end up with a theme that nobody agrees with. They’ve created art which is worthless to them. It’s Ouija board creation by committee. To have story now is to be making art without conviction.

Genre/oc play on the other hand. Story before you call it. I say naughty word yes. Story before, a story we mutually agree on is. Is conviction. It is a personal statement about what it is to be human. A reaffirmation of our shared values.
 

pawsplay

Hero
Art requires the artist to have a point, to make a statement about what it is to be human under these conditions. Having a statement isn’t something done by committee. There is no communal creation of art.

I'm going to say the opposite. There is no solo creation of art. Art does not exist without a community.
 

I'm going to say the opposite. There is no solo creation of art. Art does not exist without a community.

The appreciation of art doesn’t exist without a community.

How many pictures have been taken or drawn and not shared? How many poems in unread journals? How many climbing routes set in the wild and totally undiscovered for a decade?

Art can absolutely both be a very solitary experience and phenomena.
 

The problem with a identifying a "neotrad" form of play is every simple: it's predicated on the idea of some kind of post- trad play, something that is distinct from the trad play that has gone before. But the description of "trad" play being offered is pure nonsense. It's a muddle of stereotypes of play from the 90s with little basis in fact, Edwards' criticism of a heavy-handed prederminate "story" as sometimes espoused in games like Vampire, and an assumption that GNS is coherent, universal, and applicable enough to talk about trad typlogies (I would argue none of those are true; GNS is interesting, but not coherent; broad, but not universal; and has known deficiencies which are relevant when talking about playstyles that hinge more on models of distributing fictional duties rather than the purpose, or agenda, of the fiction).

There isn't any such thing as trad, and all the things people try to claim "trad is," were inconsistently and probably uncommonly present in games from the late 1980s to the early 200s, supposedly the heydey of "trad." We certainly did play some Vampire back in the day, but if anyone was trying to map out where a chronicle was "supposed" to go, most people would have said they were trying too hard. The standard way of playing Vampire was "vampires doing what vampires do," with meandering character development, and insofar as a model "story" was presnt it certainly was about addressing a theme, not "telling a story." The refrain throughout the 90s when someone would ask, "How do I keep my players on track?" was "Go write a novel."

Insofar as "trad" means something distinct from "Story Now," it's a question of format, not game. Not even style or intention. The premise of a bunch of players stitting down and "sticking to the module" and the GM "directing" the story is 99% at the social contract level. And I still gag when I hear something called "trad" that was not ever the dominant, "traditional" model of runnning RPGs. You can try to tell me otherwise but I literally can't even track how many game systems I've played or how many groups I've played with. There was a lot of variation. That is very important to understand, every group is so different. But the few groups I was in where the GM had a plan and expected the players to stick to it were the outliers.

What the GM brought was an agenda. The extent to which they may or may not conform to "story now" or "trad" expectations varied, but the simple fact is that what a GM brought to the table was ideas, not a "plot." Typically, if anything heavy-handed occurred, it related more to the GM's sense of genre, or morality, not adherance to a three-act structure or whatever. I've known GMs who would absolutely WRECK a session simply to make a point about "correct" behavior. They would rather put Batman and Green Lantern in jail than let them act "not like superheroes" however that looked in the GM's mind.
Gosh, I guess we've cleared that up, 80 or 90% of the play I remember from the 1970s and 1980s never actually happened! ROFLMAO!

More realistically, I think the problem here is in terms of expecting play conform 100% to a specific description/model/agenda/culture/whatever. Sure, sometimes my super railroady old-time GM took his cues from us players. He still prepped material (or ran modules, he did like him some of those) and then by gosh we went through that material! If the players wandered off target then, DMPCs showed up, or something else that put it all back on track again. This is the way MOST play was. Yes, it was loose "at the joints", but there were always long periods of focus on themes and story lines that were fundamentally injected into play by GMs for their own idiosyncratic reasons. Even that reason is "gosh I think the players will probably enjoy this sort of thing" that is still not player-driven play! Not in the way that a Narrativist agenda in play would mean it.
 

I know that I needed to do good genre play before I could consider the merits, or not, of Story Now.

I think the big thing is that OC and Genre play provide wish fulfilment in a way that Story Now doesn't. Which is a really big deal because it changes the fundamental nature of the activity.

So would I personally call it dysfunctional? No not really.
I didn't honestly think you were actually espousing that sort of viewpoint, since I've gotten a fair sense of where you're coming from in a decent number of posts. Honestly I just thought it was an odd take for you, maybe, if you get what I mean?

As for the 'wish fulfillment' thing. Yeah, that's an interesting point, and I think it does fairly assess one of the draws to what I would call 'neo-trad' play.

For example: I had this buddy who had created these D&D characters, this was in the early '80s, and he and his college buddies played some sort of very silly high level game where they all collected artifacts and whatnot. After he got back from school I'd run this WoG game that was deliberately made to imitate that, so he could play his silly high level OC kind of thing, and a few other friends of ours also made characters in that game. It was a completely silly game in the sense that the PCs were all 20th level, had the most powerful items possible, etc.

I think when we got bored of it FF just came out and I had this 'goblin' appear and say some smart ass things to the 20th level Wizard, so he disintegrated the Nilbog, and since disintegrate is INFINITE DAMAGE, the Nilbog got INFINITE HIT POINTS, and proceeded to wipe out the entire campaign world, end of story. Yeah, OC was definitely alive and well in 1982! lol.
 

The appreciation of art doesn’t exist without a community.

How many pictures have been taken or drawn and not shared? How many poems in unread journals? How many climbing routes set in the wild and totally undiscovered for a decade?

Art can absolutely both be a very solitary experience and phenomena.

You're both right. There is a sort of common ancestor sort of thing where somenody was the first human ever to do some kind of specific Artform, and even today, originality still exists (most don't practice creativity, however, hence the erroneous notion that originality is dead, and the notion that AI could ever actually be original).

But its also true that, as a social species, the Art we collectively engage in is always influencing each other, and that influence is part and parcel to how one can practice creativity.

The more you learn, about any subject not just your specific artform, the more you'll be able to get your neurons to connect and eventually, you may well find a novel, original idea to build on.
 

pawsplay

Hero
The appreciation of art doesn’t exist without a community.

How many pictures have been taken or drawn and not shared? How many poems in unread journals? How many climbing routes set in the wild and totally undiscovered for a decade?

Art can absolutely both be a very solitary experience and phenomena.

All those things exist in relationship to culture. There are unread poems, but there is no such thing as a poem in a language no one knows.
 

pemerton

Legend
Just for a fun, here’s an attack on Narrativism from a genre/oc play perspective.

<snip>

Genre/oc play on the other hand. Story before you call it. I say naughty word yes. Story before, a story we mutually agree on is. Is conviction. It is a personal statement about what it is to be human. A reaffirmation of our shared values.
Right, but this then becomes a reductio on RPGing as such. Like, if the art has already been created, what is the play for? A type of weirdly-mediated appreciation of the creation?
 

thefutilist

Explorer
Right, but this then becomes a reductio on RPGing as such. Like, if the art has already been created, what is the play for? A type of weirdly-mediated appreciation of the creation?
I mean I don’t think they’d phrase it that way but yeah.

My pithy way of saying it is:

In Narr you play to find out how it ends. In genre, you play to find out how we get to the end.

Of course you don’t even need an actual end laid out. You can do it without a GM and no pre planned plot at all. Just whenever you make a choice, make a genre appropriate choice. You can naturally get to an ending when it feels right (expresses the mutual theme you’re playing toward).
 

Remove ads

Top