Are weapon mastery feats intended to be *class-specific* multiclass feats?

[Starfox]

You are quite right, that's not what the rules say. But... I think this discussion is about understanding what the rules actually say, as interpreted by WotC.

The answer seems clear.

If you want to discuss how you will run this using your own rules, may I humbly suggest you take that discussion to "4e Fan Creations and House Rules."

Only my last paragraph was about my rule interpretation; the rest was about how to read the rules.

1. The weapon mastery paths start with a multiclass feat, thus only martial classes or a Bard who multiclasses into a martial class may take the entry feat that start the feat chain.

2. If you are both multclassed and have weapon mastery (and only a bard can do this by the rules as they exist today - well, once PHBII comes out that is ), you can take as many of the power-swapping feats (up to six, total) as you want . Indeed, you could do this if you multiclass into more than one class. This is what bards are able to do. It's their schtick.

Here you are as deep in house-rule land as I am. What the rules say is that weapon mastery feats are not class-specific, and thus do not count as your one allowed class-specific multiclass feat. This leaves some issues open. You think one answer is obvious, I think another reading is more clear and close to the "spirit of the rules".

 

[Artoomis]

...Here you are as deep in house-rule land as I am. What the rules say is that weapon mastery feats are not class-specific, and thus do not count as your one allowed class-specific multiclass feat.

Really? I do not think so.

Since the weapon mastery training feats require a great deal of focused training, each one is a multiclass feat. Normal rules for selecting multiclass feats apply.

Perhaps you can help me understand what I have overlooked or misunderstood or what question is left unanswered?

It seems to me that this is really simple:

You may take one of the weapon mastery feats as a multiclass feat (normal rules for selecting multiclass feats apply) providing you meet the prerequisites which are stated with each feat.

For Bola or Whip: Prerequisites: Dex 13, any martial class

So, if you have a Dex 13 and are any of the martial classes, you qualify. End of story.

The only complication comes from the Bard who can multiclass into a martial class and then is allowed to muticlass again and so can pick one or more weapon mastery feat(s) even though his starting class was not one of the martial classes.

For any other classes, either you are a martial class with a Dex of 13 and qualify or, well..., you can't take the feat. If a wizard, for example, were to mutliclass into fighter and have a Dex of 13, she still could not take either the Bola or Whip mastery feats because she would have already taken a multicalss feat and cannot take another - the "normal rules for selecting multiclass feats apply" and prevent that from happening.

That's the way the rules are written, so that is the starting point for anyone to decide how to run it in his/her own game.

 

[twilsemail]

The restrictions on the ammount and type of Class-specific Multiclass feats you can have are stated in the description of Class-Specific Multiclass feats on page 208 of the PHB. It says, "There are two restrictions on your choice of a class-specific multiclass feat. [...] Second, once you take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific feat for a different class."

The Weapon Training feats are listed as Weapon Training Feats in their article, not as Class-Specific Multiclass feats. This means that there aren't restrictions on the ammount of Weapon Training that you can receive.

While you can say that your view isn't a house rule, by RAW it is. It may not be RAI and it may not be how you want to read it, but it's there. There is no text anywhere saying that the Weapon Training Feats are Class-Specific feats. Yes, there is text saying to treat them as you would other Multiclass feats, but there are no rules dictating how many multiclass feats you may take. There are rules dictating how many of a specific sub-category of multiclass feats you may take.

​

 

[Seule]

It appears that you can freely take a weapon-multiclass feat after taking a class-specific multiclass feat, but not the other way round (only you take a multiclass feat of any kind, you can no longer take class-specific multiclass feats for another class, and while weapon-multiclass aren't class specific, they are certainly not the same class as any other class-specific feat).
Scenario 1: Take weapon-multiclass feat first, you can no longer take class specific multiclass feats for any other class, and any class-specific multiclass is by default not the same class.
Scenario 2: Take class-specific feat first, you can still take a weapon multiclass, because it's not class-specific to a different class.

However, that's the literal and close reading. You could argue that you can indeed take the feats either way round, and it's certainly by the wording fine to take multiple weapon-multiclass feats.
Essentially, by a literal reading, the multiclass-designation does very little. This is silly, and plainly not the intent. It's pretty obvious to me that the intent is that weapon-multiclass feats are a pseudo-class, one for each weapon, and as such you are restricted from taking more than one different weapon multiclass, or a weapon and an actual class multiclass. That's the only way it makes any sense.
It's also what I'm going with at my tables. Unlike 3.5e, 4e shouldn't be hung up on the details of wording if it plainly contradicts the intent. Until it's clarified one way or the other, my Rogue who is taking Spiked Chain multiclass won't be looking at any other type of multiclass feat. Pity, spellscarring looked cool.

Edit: Nowhere does it say that a Bard multiclassing to, say, Fighter, becomes a Martial character. It's a reasonable assumption, but not spelled out anywhere I can find.

--Penn

 

[twilsemail]

Agreed. I don't think the intent was for you to be able to take Weapon MC feats and Class MC feats. I hadn't noticed the wording when rolling up my Warden and played for a few weeks as a Warden/Fighter with a whip. After reading the other thread I spoke to my DM and suggested that we house rule Weapon MC = Class MC. I've since changed my play style quite a bit.

In the game I run I've implemented the same house rule.

I was just pointing out where the view could come from that you can MC fighter/rogue/ranger/warlord then take whip/net/chain.

 

[Artoomis]

The problem, if there really is one, is strictly one of attempting to go by very, very hype-strict rules reading and ignoring the obvious intent completely.

"Class specific" multiclass feats mean those feats that start the chain for multi-class feats - in other words, you multiclass to fighter (that's the "class-specific" multiclass feat) and then you can take the "Power Swap" multiclass feats.

The "weapon mastery" multiclass feats follow the "normal rules for selecting multiclass feats."

Unfortunately (and for the obvious reason that these feat chains work differently from class-specific multicass feat chains), they did not use the same terminology of "Class Specific" feat but, nonetheless, the rule is pretty clearly you may take one multiclass feat and then the power swap feats. Any other ruling would invalidate the ""normal rules for selecting multiclass feats" rule and render that phrase meaningless and you end up with a paradox where a hyper-strict rules reading ends up with one rule invalidating another.

Note that the intent from WotC is extremely clear both from the CustServ response I posted earlier and from the latest update for the Character Builder fixed this so that a Bard (who can multi-class more than once) can multi-class to fighter (or any martial class) and then take one of the Weapon Mastery feats that require one to be one of the martial classes. No other class can do this - any other class can muticlass once, and only once.

I can understand the confusion from the term "character-specific multiclass feat," but that's simply because the attempt was made to be very specific in the PHB but then they cleverly found another use for the multiclass mechanism that is not taking another class but focusing on a weapon instead of taking another class.

Thus, the rule is very clear, even if the terminology clouds that clearness a tad. A class (other than the Bard) may take one, and only one, multiclass feat and then may take the appropriate power-swapping multiclass feats that go with the original multiclass feat.

 

[Artoomis]

...Edit: Nowhere does it say that a Bard multiclassing to, say, Fighter, becomes a Martial character. It's a reasonable assumption, but not spelled out anywhere I can find.

--Penn

A Bard might not be a martial character after mutliclassing to fighter, but, for the purposes of feat prerequisites, et. al., they count as a member of the fighter class, and a fighter is a martial class. Thus they are "a member of a martial class" for the purposes of feat prerequisites, et. al.

It's obvious WotC agrees with this viewpoint as they changed the Character Builder to work this way.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

A Bard might not be a martial character after mutliclassing to fighter, but, for the purposes of feat prerequisites, et. al., they count as a member of the fighter class, and a fighter is a martial class. Thus they are "a member of a martial class" for the purposes of feat prerequisites, et. al.

It's obvious WotC agrees with this viewpoint as they changed the Character Builder to work this way.

Also, someone asked CS about it and they said that, yes, when you multiclass into a Fighter you qualify for anything that says "Any Martial Class". I would assume of course, that this applies to all multiclass combinations. Whether this is the same as having access to the Martial power source or not isn't totally clear, but currently there's nothing that requires access to a power source so we can basically just assume that they're synonomous for now.

 

[beverson]

To answer the OP's question, as of this morning - Yes. See the article "the Art of the Kill" here (you must be a subscriber): Dragon 373: Art of the Kill

The relevant text: "Weapon Mastery feats have appeared before in “We
Who Are About to Die . . .” (Dragon 368, page 56) and “Playing Shadar-Kai” (Dragon 372, page 5). Those articles rightly described the initial training feats for weapon mastery as multiclass feats. They failed to make clear that those multiclass feats—Bola Training, Net Training, Spiked Chain Training, and Whip Training—are class-specific multiclass feats."

 

[Starfox]

The relevant text: "Weapon Mastery feats have appeared before in “We
Who Are About to Die . . .” (Dragon 368, page 56) and “Playing Shadar-Kai” (Dragon 372, page 5). Those articles rightly described the initial training feats for weapon mastery as multiclass feats. They failed to make clear that those multiclass feats—Bola Training, Net Training, Spiked Chain Training, and Whip Training—are class-specific multiclass feats."

This does indeed bring an official resolution.