New Forgotten Realms designed by FR haters?

[Ed_Laprade]

I've been gaming for over 30 years and the only difference between Greyhawk and The Forgotten Realms that I'm aware of is that E Gary wrote one and Ed Greenwood wrote the other. But then, the GMs I've played with usually made their own worlds. Or put their setting in GH or FR and we didn't see much of it outside of a few towns and cities, plus wilderness and dungeons. They just weren't important enough to us. (We were there to kill things and take their stuff!)

Oh yeah, and is anyone going to explain why the Realms are Forgotten? (And frankly, I wish they were. There'd be a lot less arguing going on here if they/it were/was.)

 

[Obryn]

I was only referring to this question in the context of someone that thought the realms was too much work.
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I have never read an Eberron book. If I was asked to write an adventure for it I would be able to create a good, relevent, adventure with only perusing the main source book for Eberron. The realms was the same. If however you wanted to write a realms changing campaign, maybe then you would have to research more.
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In that quote above I am assuming the context of an individual that thinks the realms is too 'hard', 'much', 'complex', 'esoteric', and other appropriate words. In that context, I asked why would someone then want to use the realms.
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It is not a difficult world with which to work. I did repeat this using the assumption I described above.

I'll be honest here - it seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too. That is, have a hugely detailed world with abundant lore, but also have a setting that's light enough for casual DMs to just feel like jumping in.

I haven't felt like FR has been that kind of world since the grey box - my favorite version, fwiw.

It most certainly is a players call. Some people though need support for their favourite setting. I am not one of those, I could write adventures for the forgotten realms all I want, or modify modules for the setting. Someone that wanted support though is pretty much shagged if they don't like the DRASTIC change, and shift of complete paradigm. It is no longer the campaign setting they wanted, nor is it the one they have come to accept.

If they want to play the old realms, there's a ton of material available for it. Literally, staggering amounts - which is either a perk or a problem here, depending on your perspective.

For the 1e/2e conversion, FR underwent a big ol' cataclysm. It shook up the setting. I wasn't paying enough attention to know if there was a similar shake-up for 2e/3e. For 3e/4e... Well, lets face facts - the games have some different assumptions.

If you want to keep game mechanics (particularly involving magic) consistent with world-logic, in a world which shows a historical narrative awareness of D&D rules changes, you simply have to change some things. I'd say the Spellplague and Returned Abeir are a pretty good example of changing things. So, with that in mind, let me switch it around - how would you have handled the 3e/4e Realms conversion?

Its one thing to come up with a new rules system. People choose campaigns for a particular spectrum of adventure they enjoy. Many FR fans feel as if that spectrum was changed on them completely. INstead of green realms they are now playing red realms.

It is no different that saying 'we are now discontinuing Star Wars material and giving you this new campaign setting'. Ok Star Wars fans, we are taking away the force. There are many empires now Klingon and Romulan are some of them. The entire new republic/rebel alliance/republic is now being called star fleet.

If you liked Star Trek that is great. If you liked Star Wars though you are screwed. The rub though is that Star Trek already exists, there is no where for Star Wars fans to go and have their product supported.

So are you arguing that there shouldn't be a 4e Forgotten Realms?

That would be ... kinda shocking, frankly.

-O

 

[Primal]

Again with calling people lazy... You say laziness, I say too much work for something supposed to be an activity someone does with his free time.

Well, as far as the designers/authors go... they get *paid* to read that stuff. If an author says that it's too much work to keep consistent to existing Realmslore, maybe it's time to get a new job?

As far as DMs go, I can understand that it's a lot of extra work, if you have no previous knowledge of the Realms. However, how is it any different from DMs new to Eberron having to read dozens of accessories PLUS dozens of novels? Oh, and the Dragonshard articles as well. I have only read a single Eberron book ('Tales from the Last War'), but I've also taken a glimpse at some of the accessories and articles, and seems to me that the same depth of details and "burden of lore" is there as well.

So how is Eberron, with all that lore I "should" read before running it, any different from FR? Because as far as I'm concerned, most of the FR products released during the AD&D era were not that relevant, and probably almost half of the products released during the 3E era were regional books -- which, in my rough estimation, probably brings the amount of "required reading" on par with Eberron.

If I think it's too much trouble (as those who thought running FR was) to start an Eberron campaign, can I now cry: "It's too much work! I want the 'Mournplague' to happen! Give me Eberron that does not require me to read and memorize *dozens* of books!"

 

[Ulrick]

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Oh yeah, and is anyone going to explain why the Realms are Forgotten? (And frankly, I wish they were. There'd be a lot less arguing going on here if they/it were/was.)

About 20 years ago, a friend explained to me that Toril and Earth at one time had some sort of connection, via magical portals. People mingled freely between the two worlds, and its why Earth has legends about giants and elves and the like. At some point, the connection was lost/broken and became only a myth. Eventually even the myth became....FORGOTTEN!

EDIT: And here's wikipedia to the rescue...
Forgotten Realms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read the 2nd paragraph

 

[Mournblade94]

I'll be honest here - it seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too. That is, have a hugely detailed world with abundant lore, but also have a setting that's light enough for casual DMs to just feel like jumping in.

I haven't felt like FR has been that kind of world since the grey box - my favorite version, fwiw.

Actually it is my feeling that the realms were easy enough for a casual DM to just jump right in. Where is it that a new DM wishes to focus? Set an adventure in Waterdeep you might need some background. You want a port city setting, yet you don't want lore? Ok use Zassespur. If you THOUGHT however that the realms was too complex why then use it? There is nothing about any campaign world I find too complex. It may seem daunting at first until you explore. Start small, then work your way out, like you are making your own campaign world using a small town.

If I had my choice, I would choose the rich lore over simplicity in any campaign setting I choose.

If they want to play the old realms, there's a ton of material available for it. Literally, staggering amounts - which is either a perk or a problem here, depending on your perspective.

I agree with you that the Realms material will always be available. For some people I know, the realms is like their comic books, they want to see what is in store for the setting. They were not however expecting the setting to completely change.

For the 1e/2e conversion, FR underwent a big ol' cataclysm. It shook up the setting. I wasn't paying enough attention to know if there was a similar shake-up for 2e/3e. For 3e/4e... Well, lets face facts - the games have some different assumptions.

The changes to the 2nd edition realms were the gods, and some nations were turned on their head. IN THIS change, you have a complete change in morphology. Waterdeep known for its great harbour, suddenly has sunk its entire navy, and its Harbour is jammed with ships that now becomes a new ward. It is no longer your great merchant city. I can't remember all the changes quite frankly because I haven't opened the book in months.

If you want to keep game mechanics (particularly involving magic) consistent with world-logic, in a world which shows a historical narrative awareness of D&D rules changes, you simply have to change some things. I'd say the Spellplague and Returned Abeir are a pretty good example of changing things. So, with that in mind, let me switch it around - how would you have handled the 3e/4e Realms conversion?

Simply you have Eberron with many many fantastical elements. I would have left the landscape very much the same as is, but perhaps changed some nations around if I wanted to go a cataclysm route.

Most likely since the magic system changed, I perhaps would of made Mystra the guardian of the weave trying to keep it from fracturing. Somehow instead of the weave it rips into some realmsian form of powersources. Wars may be fought but there would not suddenly be utterly alien phenomenon.

Forgotten Realms was a good place to adventure where you could have your standard medieval city or fantastical magic city. Now the designers have decreed that the non fantastical is no longer fun, so they needed to make everything alien. For some reason WOTC seems to think they are really capable of defining fun.

4e was a majour change (most of which I am unapologetically against), but the Realms did not need need a change in form to conform to the new rules set.

So are you arguing that there shouldn't be a 4e Forgotten Realms?

That would be ... kinda shocking, frankly.

Well WOTC still may need to sell some novels...

4e forgotten realms is related to previous edition forgotten realms in only the vaguest sense. It is a different world using names from a previous campaign world.

For all purposes though, if I had my choice of having this remnant be the realms or WOTC not printing it, I would choose they retire the realms.

 

[Scribble]

Well, as far as the designers/authors go... they get *paid* to read that stuff. If an author says that it's too much work to keep consistent to existing Realmslore, maybe it's time to get a new job?

Sure... Who argued that?

You do also have to consider that if a setting isn't inspiring your authors (paid or not) something needs to happen.

I don't know if this was really happening or not, but it's a thought.

As far as DMs go, I can understand that it's a lot of extra work, if you have no previous knowledge of the Realms. However, how is it any different from DMs new to Eberron having to read dozens of accessories PLUS dozens of novels? Oh, and the Dragonshard articles as well. I have only read a single Eberron book ('Tales from the Last War'), but I've also taken a glimpse at some of the accessories and articles, and seems to me that the same depth of details and "burden of lore" is there as well.

There's a lot no doubt, but certainly no where near 20 years worth.

So how is Eberron, with all that lore I "should" read before running it, any different from FR? Because as far as I'm concerned, most of the FR products released during the AD&D era were not that relevant, and probably almost half of the products released during the 3E era were regional books -- which, in my rough estimation, probably brings the amount of "required reading" on par with Eberron.

If I think it's too much trouble (as those who thought running FR was) to start an Eberron campaign, can I now cry: "It's too much work! I want the 'Mournplague' to happen! Give me Eberron that does not require me to read and memorize *dozens* of books!"

Sure why not?

 

[Mournblade94]

Well, as far as the designers/authors go... they get *paid* to read that stuff. If an author says that it's too much work to keep consistent to existing Realmslore, maybe it's time to get a new job?

If you are getting PAID to write an adventure or novel and choose not too because the realms are too complex, then yes you need to get another job.

As far as DMs go, I can understand that it's a lot of extra work, if you have no previous knowledge of the Realms. However, how is it any different from DMs new to Eberron having to read dozens of accessories PLUS dozens of novels? Oh, and the Dragonshard articles as well. I have only read a single Eberron book ('Tales from the Last War'), but I've also taken a glimpse at some of the accessories and articles, and seems to me that the same depth of details and "burden of lore" is there as well.

So how is Eberron, with all that lore I "should" read before running it, any different from FR? Because as far as I'm concerned, most of the FR products released during the AD&D era were not that relevant, and probably almost half of the products released during the 3E era were regional books -- which, in my rough estimation, probably brings the amount of "required reading" on par with Eberron.

If I think it's too much trouble (as those who thought running FR was) to start an Eberron campaign, can I now cry: "It's too much work! I want the 'Mournplague' to happen! Give me Eberron that does not require me to read and memorize *dozens* of books!"

Very true what you say. Yet Eberron as a world has a paradigm that fits well within the 4e design philosophy. They need no excuses to drastically change anything. Eberron will not need to be shoehorned into 4e it will fit nice.

FR had to be shoehorned, but they used a shoehorn several sizes to large.

 

[Cadfan]

For those worried that the forgotten realms were designed by people who hate the forgotten realms:

If I'd designed it, you'd know.

 

[Primal]

Sure... Who argued that?

You do also have to consider that if a setting isn't inspiring your authors (paid or not) something needs to happen.

I thought the issue was not about whether FR inspires writers or not, but rather the "burden of lore" they need to read to avoid conflict canon Realmslore? If it was not inspiring, I don't think there would be such an overwhelming number of FR novels published lately (I honestly can't even keep up with reading them).

I might not always feel inspired in my job, but I can't go and demand my boss "shakes things up" just so that I could feel more inspired about my work again. Honestly, if you're a professional writer who only writes when inspiration or mood strikes, maybe it's not the ideal job for you?

There's a lot no doubt, but certainly no where near 20 years worth.

Well, most of the FR products published by TSR during the years just before its dying trashes isn't actually worth buying (or reading). Volo's Guides, the "Deity Books" and several others (i.e. all the stuff written by Greenwood, Schend and Boyd) is another matter. All in all, the books that matter probably have about the same amount of lore that Eberron books. Of course, YMMV.

Sure why not?

"I want the MOURNPLAGUE to happen before I'll touch Eberron! You hear that, designers?!? Strip it down to the core so I won't have to read X books on Aeryni elven habits or Dragonmarks or the events of the Last War, or the noble Houses, or the history of Xen'drik..."

 

[Scribble]

I thought the issue was not about whether FR inspires writers or not, but rather the "burden of lore" they need to read to avoid conflict canon Realmslore? If it was not inspiring, I don't think there would be such an overwhelming number of FR novels published lately (I honestly can't even keep up with reading them).

The burdon of lore I'm talking about in so far as writers are concerned is the lore contradicts a story they want to tell, so they can't tell it, or they have to heavily modify it to make it fit.

I might not always feel inspired in my job, but I can't go and demand my boss "shakes things up" just so that I could feel more inspired about my work again. Honestly, if you're a professional writer who only writes when inspiration or mood strikes, maybe it's not the ideal job for you?

Inspired to do your job, and "doing your job" are two different things. It's possible to still meet your demanded work output without being inspired, but that's all you're doing. Just meeting your deadlines with something that meets the criteria. Inspiration helps you meet those deadlines with material that goes above and beyond what would otherwise "meet expected criteria."

Sure, Heath ledger could have just played a part as "the joker." He could have just done the lines, and moved on, but instead he was inspired to add somethign to the role. He went above and beyond and consequently helped the film do the same.

And I feel somewhat bad for you if your employer is that hard nosed that they never accept any employee input. My company is going through some changes right now, partially inspired by customer demand, but a whole lot of it was inspired by employee thoughts and opinions on what will help us do our jobs more effectively and less stressfully.

Well, most of the FR products published by TSR during the years just before its dying trashes isn't actually worth buying (or reading). Volo's Guides, the "Deity Books" and several others (i.e. all the stuff written by Greenwood, Schend and Boyd) is another matter. All in all, the books that matter probably have about the same amount of lore that Eberron books. Of course, YMMV.

The very fact that someone else's milleage might vary, pretty much invalidates this statement. There's a whole lotta stuff out there for FR. Just because YOU didn't care about it doesn't mean it didn't matter to others. (Or effect what could and couldn't be done in the realms as they stood.)

"I want the MOURNPLAGUE to happen before I'll touch Eberron! You hear that, designers?!? Strip it down to the core so I won't have to read X books on Aeryni elven habits or Dragonmarks or the events of the Last War, or the noble Houses, or the history of Xen'drik..."

If there are enough of you it might happen. Which I'd be cool with too. New stories.