Do wizards suck? / multiple attacks

[Goumindong]

Any other definition does not obsolete the entire concept of hindering terrain. And, it can be used, and it does exist. It's actual TERRAIN. You know, things like areas with lots of sharp rocks, pits, precipices, or a camp fire. The purpose of the rule is related to longer term environmental effects, not short term effects created by individuals such as through spells.

At no point is the distinction made between magical fire in the terrain and non-magical fire in the terrain. There is no distinction made between DM made effects and player made effects.

The only distinctions that are made are whether or not its damaging.

The intent is to allow players to slide foes into damaging areas. DMG-p44 "Using forced movement to pull, push, or slide creatures onto ice, or into a pit, or into a cloud of daggers is a clever tactic."

Getting a save does not prevent enemies from being pushed or slide into damaging areas, it simply makes the tactic less overly ridiculously broken. Note that DMG-44 even mentions one area that is explicitly hindering terrain that you explicitly get a save for being pushed into. Does DMG-44 negate the rules for getting pushed into pits?

Hell, DMG-44 is the place where it tells you to give them a save, does DMG-44 negate itself?

It's the "pinball" tactic that creates the issue. This IS a common complaint on the boards, and there is a lot of discussion about it. Heck, there is even this about it:

That many people hold incorrect views does not make their views correct, or even more correct. They're still wrong. Ironically that is a thread full of people who support me, but still.

Your exaggeration is not helpful.

Not exaggeration, ignore the rules at your own peril, pray to god you aren't playing with a wizard who knows what they're doing.

 

[keterys]

Until such time as they change the rules, zones created by powers are not hindering terrain by RAW... unless they individually say so, anyhow.

Hoo boy, maybe they should be though. By RAI, they might well be, too.

This topic has been done to death a little on these boards, though, so I'd not suggest this topic going into great detail on it.

 

[Goumindong]

Until such time as they change the rules, zones created by powers are not hindering terrain by RAW... unless they individually say so, anyhow.
.

By your reading of RAW there is nothing ever that can be hindering terrain because nothing ever, even pits, even the things that are explicitly given as examples of hindering terrain, are specifically labeled as Hindering Terrain.

Hindering Terrain is not a keyword, it is not a terrain type, it is not a template, it is a description of the area and if that description fits[that the area be damaging, and it does] then the area is hindering terrain.

No, RAW is that these zones are Hindering Terrain, and just as you don't "enter a zone each time you enter a square that that zone encompasses" as Custserv claims, you do not classify nothing as Hindering Terrain as Custserv claims.

 

[keterys]

No, by my reading of the rules, and customer service's, anything that is labeled Hindering Terrain or is _terrain_ that is _hindering_, including pits (especially including 'Examples: Pits, deep water, lava, fire.' the RAW examples), follows those rules.

Zones are not terrain unless they specifically state that they are. I do personally play that you get saves for being forced into zones, because I find it an eminently reasonable houserule to prevent abuse, but for arbitrating more RAW strict games (such as LFR), I would not do so.

Terrain is something that a DM decides to put into an encounter, perhaps even following the advice and guidelines on DMG60 to do so. The rules on p44 specifically refer to those types of terrain. This rule helps prevent someone from being tossed into a water-filled chasm, pit, lava, etc... it does not state, in any way shape or form, that it alters the rules for player or monster powers that create Zones.

It's a good house rule. I applaud it. I use it. It's not RAW.

 

[Goumindong]

No, by my reading of the rules, and customer service's, anything that is labeled Hindering Terrain or is _terrain_ that is _hindering_, including pits (especially including 'Examples: Pits, deep water, lava, fire.' the RAW examples), follows those rules.

Wait, where does it say that a pit is hindering terrain?

A: It doesn't, ever. Your reading requires that terrain be specifically labeled "Hindering" in order for that to occur. If you're labeling player created terrain as not hindering but DM created terrain to be hindering then you're just up and using DM fiat to describe what is and isn't hindering terrain and you're doing so against the description in the DMG

This rule helps prevent someone from being tossed into a water-filled chasm, pit, lava, etc... it does not state, in any way shape or form, that it alters the rules for player or monster powers that create Zones.

It doesn't alter the rules for player or monster powers that create zones. The rules for player or monster powers that create zones are the same as they were before this rule and after this rule[mainly because there is no such thing as before or after this rule, you're adjudicating an effect, and the way that you adjudicate effects is by RAW and by RAW these areas are hindering terrain because they meet the required definition of hindering terrain]

Just as you do not alter the rules for forced movement because a power lets you push enemies you do not alter the rules for terrain because a power modifies it. You would only alter the rules for terrain if the power specifically said that it changed the general rules for terrain, you do not just up and alter the rules for terrain because you feel like it

P.S. Zones create terrain effects [pg 59 PHB] with "scorching fire harming everyone in it" given as an example of a terrain effect that a Zone might create.

 

[keterys]

Wait, where does it say that a pit is hindering terrain?

A: It doesn't, ever. Your reading requires that terrain be specifically labeled "Hindering" in order for that to occur. If you're labeling player created terrain as not hindering but DM created terrain to be hindering then you're just up and using DM fiat to describe what is and isn't hindering terrain and you're doing so against the description in the DMG

p61 specifically calls out several examples and gives rules to apply to terrain to determine if it is hindering. Of course, we're still talking about _terrain_. No form of anything that isn't terrain could be Hindering Terrain, by definition.

It doesn't alter the rules for player or monster powers that create zones.

Correct.

The rules for player or monster powers that create zones are the same as they were before this rule and after this rule

Still correct.

by RAW these areas are hindering terrain because they meet the required definition of hindering terrain

Since... when? I mean, do the following powers qualify?
Consecrated Ground (PH65) - movable zone, damages enemies
Seal of Protection (PH71) - ends enemy movement on entering
Hunger of Hadar (PH134) - deals damage and blocks LOS (even though hindering terrain by definition allows LOS)
Tendrils of Thuban (PH135) - zone that is attacked and immobilized each round, but isn't automatic on entering
Stinking Cloud (PH161) - movable zone that damages and blocks LOS
Wall of Fire (PH163) - wall conjuration that damages creatures in it and slows movement through it, blocks LOS
Wall of Ice (PH165) - area wall that deals damage if you start next to it (so does WoF), but worth finding out if damaging area when you start counts
Cloudkill (PH166) - movable zone that damages but does not block LOS

None of them mention terrain at any point, if that helps.

Some things do, of course - many powers have 'squares are considered difficult terrain' or 'the area is difficult terrain', but I'd find it most useful to know how far reaching you think the RAW apply here

Just as you do not alter the rules for forced movement because a power lets you push enemies you do not alter the rules for terrain because a power modifies it. You would only alter the rules for terrain if the power specifically said that it changed the general rules for terrain, you do not just up and alter the rules for terrain because you feel like it

Correct again.

P.S. Zones create terrain effects [pg 59 PHB] with "scorching fire harming everyone in it" given as an example of a terrain effect that a Zone might create.

Yep - so, Wall of Fire (a conjuration) does not get the save to stop being forced into it, right? I mean, that was the one this discussion was started on, and it's neither difficult terrain nor a zone that might create a terrain effect. It even blocks line of sight. It's almost flaunting how much it's not hindering terrain at every turn.

 

[keterys]

I really wish that whoever asked and got this answer from R&D at DDXP:
'Can you slide a target multiple times (by using a warlock's diabolic grasp or harrowstorm powers) into a wizard's wall of fire for iterative damage?
There are several factors to take into consideration here. First, a target must move into the wall's space—that is, moving into every square of that space does not inflict iterative damage. However, if a target moves into the wall's space, then back out, and then back in again, it will take more damage; but remember, entering each square occupied by the wall costs 3 extra squares of movement (which might be possible with a high-level use of a harrowstorm).'

had also gotten the save question answered. Although, you'd think the person would also have said if you got a save at each time entering the effect, as it's pretty relevant.

 

[Goumindong]

p61 specifically calls out several examples and gives rules to apply to terrain to determine if it is hindering. Of course, we're still talking about _terrain_. No form of anything that isn't terrain could be Hindering Terrain, by definition.

1. Incorrect many things that are not "terrain" are difficult terrain.
2. Define "terrain". You're defining it as "stuff the dm makes and only the dm makes" and not defining it by its actual definition of "the area"

Since... when? I mean, do the following powers qualify?
None of them mention terrain at any point, if that helps.

Since the rules were put into the book for you to use. I mean, you're seriously asking since when did the rules apply in general with only specific instances of the rules over-riding them?

I am not going to go over each and every power you look at to tell you whether or not it counts are not. Note: none of them have to. "pit" never mentions terrain either, is it suddenly "not terrain"

Some things do, of course - many powers have 'squares are considered difficult terrain' or 'the area is difficult terrain', but I'd find it most useful to know how far reaching you think the RAW apply here

I am reaching nowhere

Yep - so, Wall of Fire (a conjuration) does not get the save to stop being forced into it, right? I mean, that was the one this discussion was started on, and it's neither difficult terrain nor a zone that might create a terrain effect. It even blocks line of sight. It's almost flaunting how much it's not hindering terrain at every turn.

Is a wall of fire something that is in the area that you would have to nagivate through? Well then, you get a save.

(even though hindering terrain by definition allows LOS)

Read the section again. Hindering terrain does not have to allow LOS. It simply does not need to block it. None of the terrain types are mutually exclusive, a fog over difficult terrain or hindering terrain does not suddenly make it not difficult terrain.

 

[keterys]

Ah well, you didn't even try

That's clear enough for me that participation is fruitless.

As I said earlier, this discussion has little to do with the actual thread. It has more to do with it than if, say, Vin Diesel is participating in the thread, but the topic's been done to death. Some day, maybe WotC will even issue further clarification, beyond the two examples already given.

In the meantime - folks will see a lot of variance from game to game on how this issue is handled.

 

[Caliban]

So, if you want to play a broken game against the intent of the creators while also not being able as a DM to ever use hindering terrain for anything without simply fudging the rules, go right ahead.

Wow, that's pretty insulting.

You've been wrong about several things in this thread. Posting walls of text to support your arguements doesn't make you right, it just makes you overly verbose and wrong.

Guess who's opinion I value more, yours or the guy who's paid by the creators of the game to answer rules? (hint: it's not yours.)