Do wizards suck? / multiple attacks

[BlockyPS]

Hey PS,

Might be true in Oz, but definitely not true in the UK (knife training has been important for the commandos since the day of their inception, and is still considered to be an important aspect of training). This isn't melee/duelling, of course. The point is more akin to assassination, killing the target before he has had a chance to react!

Yes, I suspect you are quite right. I have seen some of this training done by the Australian forces too but as you say it's limited to the 'quick kill' rather than a duel which is very different and takes a lot more training to get good at. Regardless, those guys are tough and I wouldn't want to ever have to face them in any situation

He was Ritsuke Otake Sensei teaching Tenshi Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu in Narita City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan. Apparently a pretty well known guy.

Thanks for that, I'll look him up. I've met a few 'famous' people over the years and been disapointed by their actual ability. Often the man just doesn't meet the hype. However, Ritsuke Otake was of an era when they built them pretty tough and serious.

BTW, I could split out the 'real world' discussion posts into a separate thread with my mighty moderator powers (tm) if there is any desire to keep the discussion going.

Of course, the thread diverged quite radically from the original post by the end of about page 1!

Fine with me. I was enjoying my discussion with APC and have refrained from commenting on some other posts here. I've given the daggers vs sword and shield some thought and have some insights. So if you do split the discussion, I'd be happy to contribute

Cheers
BlockyPS

 

[Goumindong]

BTW, I could split out the 'real world' discussion posts into a separate thread with my mighty moderator powers (tm) if there is any desire to keep the discussion going.

Of course, the thread diverged quite radically from the original post by the end of about page 1!

Cheers

I do not mind either way. The conversation is pretty over unless APC comes back anyway.

 

[BlockyPS]

Hey PS

He was Ritsuke Otake Sensei teaching Tenshi Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu in Narita City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan. Apparently a pretty well known guy.

Yes! Not only did I find him I think I found the doco you were referring too

Yes, this guy is legit and a very skilful master. I certainly enjoyed watching him demo. Great watching for anyone interested. If you want to just watch the fight application watch the end of video 1, the start of 2 and all of 4.

http://mylifeinbudo.blogspot.com/2006/06/dvd-review-way-of-warrior-episode-1-8.html

I'm pretty sure this is the doco you watched as he practices against a Halberd and a staff and the narrator comments on the difficulty he has with them.

But what you're watching here isn't 'sparring' it's Kata. For those non-martial artists out there. A Kata is a set of moves designed to help teach techniques and drill applications. The narrator was being a bit disingenuous saying he was having trouble with the spearman when the moves are actually rehearsed.

Enjoy

Cheers
BlockyPS

 

[barrowwight]

Not this is the proper forum for this but I think you might be surprised at who you find playing DnD. Besides over 200 bar fights, up to and including, broken bottles, knives and firearms. I've been inside a full contact kickboxing ring 18 times and I'm 17-1. I also spent 6 years in the military and after going through SEAL training I went to Somalia and the Gulf. I'm 6'5" 250lbs and I'm not only well trained but I'm well experienced. I've had 350 stitches and more than 20 broken bones. I was in a fight with 3 marines in Hong Kong and two of them had to be returned to the states instead of continuing on to the gulf. I've punished a lot of people physically in my 44 years and I hit pretty hard. I've caved in cheeks and eye sockets, fractured jaws, and knocked numerous people unconscious, and I have yet to see a single person killed by a blow to the temple.
.

Dude! You were awesome in Pitch Black.

 

[Quaestor]

The real power of wizards is seen in their sustainable daily zones. Screw fireball, if you want to do damage you pick up poison cloud. Now not only do you not need to make attack rolls to do damage but you can shove people into it to stack it up. Ever seen a wizard do 45 damage in a single round to a single enemy at level 6? I have done it with an un optimized wizard(Dwarf Staff wizard thunder waves the enemy into a poison cloud, he fails his save takes damage for entering the cloud and then takes damage again at the start of his turn).

The power is a bit better than you describe, even. Unless I am misinterpreting your last statement, it sounds like the enemy was granted a saving throw to go prone rather than entering the zone of Stinking Cloud while being pushed by Thunderwave. Zones do *not* count as hindering terrain (they are not terrain at all), so someone being subjected to forced movement that pushes them into a zone gets no such save.

Quaestor the Wanderer

 

[Old Gumphrey]

This is actually pretty simple. If you think the wizard sucks, what you actually want to play is a warlock or sorcerer; or perhaps a fighter or paladin, if you're really confused.

 

[Goumindong]

The power is a bit better than you describe, even. Unless I am misinterpreting your last statement, it sounds like the enemy was granted a saving throw to go prone rather than entering the zone of Stinking Cloud while being pushed by Thunderwave. Zones do *not* count as hindering terrain (they are not terrain at all), so someone being subjected to forced movement that pushes them into a zone gets no such save.

Quaestor the Wanderer

Zones count as hindering terrain.

 

[Caliban]

Zones count as hindering terrain.

No, player created damaging effects are not hindering terrain.

SubjectDo damaging spell effects count as "Hindering Terrain"
Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent)
09/19/2008 09:51 AM
Hello Caliban,

Damaging spell effects do not count as hindering terrain, and so monsters do not get a saving throw to avoid forced movement into them. It makes no difference if it's a cloud of daggers or a wall of fire.


Josh
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
Customer (Caliban)
09/18/2008 09:30 PM

Page 44 of the DMG states that targets get a save to avoid being forced into Hindering Terrain (which is on page 61). Do spell effects such as Cloud of Daggers or the various Wall spells count as Hindering Terrain? Does a target get a save to avoid being pushed, pulled, or slid into a damaging spell effect? What about one that blocks line of sight, such as Wall of Fire?

Thank you.

********************
Page Number: Page 44 and 61
Book Name: Dungeon Master's Guide (4e)

 

[Goumindong]

He is wrong. It meets all the definitions of hindering terrain and any other definition obsoletes the entire concept of hindering terrain since it can never be used anywhere ever for anything and doesn't actually exist.[It in fact cannot then exist by any definition that excludes damaging areas created by players]

There are further intent objections[these powers would be stupidly hilariously overpowered without them, excuse me while i slide you into and out of a wall of fire 10 times and instant kill just about anything that isn't immune to fire by the time you get slide powers. E.G. Wizard Wall of Fire(blood mage boosted) + High int warlord "own the battlefield" = Kill nearly any non-fire immune encounter in one shot. ] In that "there is no way wizards was that stupid to put such exploit prone mechanics into the game"[frankly makes the original blade cascade look weak]

And then there is also the explicit balance argument in that its completely and utterly retardedly, unbalanced and will ruin your game the instant you let your wizard get away with it.

So, if you want to play a broken game against the intent of the creators while also not being able as a DM to ever use hindering terrain for anything without simply fudging the rules, go right ahead.

 

[Mistwell]

He is wrong. It meets all the definitions of hindering terrain and any other definition obsoletes the entire concept of hindering terrain since it can never be used anywhere ever for anything and doesn't actually exist.[It in fact cannot then exist by any definition that excludes damaging areas created by players]

Any other definition does not obsolete the entire concept of hindering terrain. And, it can be used, and it does exist. It's actual TERRAIN. You know, things like areas with lots of sharp rocks, pits, precipices, or a camp fire. The purpose of the rule is related to longer term environmental effects, not short term effects created by individuals such as through spells.

There are further intent objections[these powers would be stupidly hilariously overpowered without them, excuse me while i slide you into and out of a wall of fire 10 times and instant kill just about anything that isn't immune to fire by the time you get slide powers. E.G. Wizard Wall of Fire(blood mage boosted) + High int warlord "own the battlefield" = Kill nearly any non-fire immune encounter in one shot. ] In that "there is no way wizards was that stupid to put such exploit prone mechanics into the game"[frankly makes the original blade cascade look weak]

The intent is to allow players to slide foes into damaging areas. DMG-p44 "Using forced movement to pull, push, or slide creatures onto ice, or into a pit, or into a cloud of daggers is a clever tactic."

It's the "pinball" tactic that creates the issue. This IS a common complaint on the boards, and there is a lot of discussion about it. Heck, there is even this about it:

I believe there is a fairly compelling argument about how it only effects you once per forced movement in some other threads. Regardless, twisting the hindering terrain rule to deal with it is not the solution.

Also, Wall of Fire is a bad example in my opinion. It states "Entering a square occupied by the wall costs 3 extra squares of movement". Mind you, it does not say it is difficult terrain (which forced movement ignores). It says it costs 3 extra squares of movement. So, I'd probably rule that it would be rather difficult to pinball someone through a wall of fire, given how much movement you need to do it.

And then there is also the explicit balance argument in that its completely and utterly retardedly, unbalanced and will ruin your game the instant you let your wizard get away with it.

While it is a complaint on the boards, I do not know of any reports where this tactic has ruined the game. Yes, it is an issue, and no, the hindering terrain rule is not the solution.

So, if you want to play a broken game against the intent of the creators while also not being able as a DM to ever use hindering terrain for anything without simply fudging the rules, go right ahead.

Your exaggeration is not helpful.