So, about Expertise...

[Regicide]

It was a fine test. It was a hard encounter test.

No, you can't say that with a straight face.

So here we have a situation that is considered a typical hard encounter with PCs needing an 18, 19, or 20 to hit without other situational bonuses.

No, we have a situation that is the HARDEST hard encounter going against one of if not the HIGHEST defense of said creature, AND you're tying the party's hands by not counting ANY additional to-hit bonuses from feats, race, powers etc. Calling that typical is absolutely ludicrous.

To illustrate your "a party should have an easy time getting those to-hits under a 10" claim, you would have to state exactly which bonuses that you are talking about.

How about a rogue, going against reflex who took demigod and sly flourish and has combat advantage, which, despite what you say, is trivial to get, there is a 11 point difference right there, taking it under 10 to-hit WITHOUT any other powers or benefits of the party like triumphant strike, marks and the like. And again, remember, this is the HARDEST hard encounter, NOT, as you claim "typical."

Maybe this is why I've never seen ANYONE who has actually played in epic say it's anything like hard to hit. Even the hardest possible +4 encounter is still pretty easy to handle before you start piling on all the benefits of stuff from Adventurer's Vault, Martial Power and PHB2 and the like.

 

[KarinsDad]

How about a rogue, going against reflex who took demigod and sly flourish and has combat advantage, which, despite what you say, is trivial to get, there is a 11 point difference right there, taking it under 10 to-hit WITHOUT any other powers or benefits of the party like triumphant strike, marks and the like. And again, remember, this is the HARDEST hard encounter, NOT, as you claim "typical."

Actually, this is not "the HARDEST hard encounter". It's only that way if the foe is a solo. There is 1 46th level solo, 3 elites, 3 regulars, and 1 minion in the sample set. These creatures could show up in n, n+1, or n+2 encounters.

And, not every PC is a Rogue. Not every PC gets to use weapon proficiency against Reflex. Rogues are the opitome of "I can hit you easier than my friends, but you can hit me easier than hitting my friends too".

Explain how Combat Advantage is trivial to get. Yes, it's possible, even without flank. But, trivial?

Rogue with Dagger (+1), 18 starting Dex (+7 at level 22), level (+11), Demigod (+1), magic weapon (+5), +3 Proficiency = +28

46th level reflexes: 41, 38, 41, 40, 42, 35, 40, 38, average = 39+

Rogue hits on a 11, on a 9 with Combat Advantage. This is the best to hit class, maxxed out with Demigod (instead of Sly Trickster), has the best possible magic weapon at his level, and he has a reasonable change to hit a hard encounter foe. Other PCs do not have this, but he does.

The Rogue has AC 37: Leather (+3), 18 starting Dex (+7 at level 22), level (+11), Demigod (+1), magic armor (+5)

His opponents (the ones who can target AC) to hits are: +33, +32, +31, +31, +30, +31, average = +31.

They hit him on a 6. On a 4 if they get combat advantage against the Rogue.

So, the Rogue needs a 9 or 11 to hit and the monster needs a 4 or 6 to hit.


What happens if the Rogue does not start with an 18 Dex (like the Tiefling in our group)? Or does not take Demigod (which many Rogues might not)? Or only has a +4 magic weapon at level 22 (which is quite possible based on magic item distribution)?

Sorry, but your POV is not supportable, even when you stack the deck in your favor with the best to hit class with the best to hit options. That's not reality for every PC in every game.

The maxxed out Ranger with the +2 Prof Bow against AC hits on a 14 with combat advantage and 16 without.

 

[Elric]

Maybe this is why I've never seen ANYONE who has actually played in epic say it's anything like hard to hit. Even the hardest possible +4 encounter is still pretty easy to handle before you start piling on all the benefits of stuff from Adventurer's Vault, Martial Power and PHB2 and the like.

I haven't played at anything near epic, so here's a question. Assume you have an encounter of 2 Pit Fiends, who use their summon ability on the first round of combat for 2 War Devils each, plus 3 Ice Devils. Do you think that a typical level 22 party straight out of the PH, without taking serious advantage of the few most powerful abilities in the book (Orb of Imposition, Champion of Order's Certain Justice power, Blood Mage's Destructive Salutation, and Rain of Blows come to mind at level 22) would have a pretty easy time with it? I think this would be really tough for most parties, but it's a level+4 encounter (just under 45K exp), which you say would be pretty easy above.

Now, this may reflect the Pit Fiend's summon ability being a little too strong. However, Karinsdad's test fight used Doresain the Ghoul King, who seems very weak on offense for a level 27 Elite.

Rogue with Dagger (+1), 18 starting Dex (+7 at level 22), level (+11), Demigod (+1), magic weapon (+5) = +25

Rogue hits on a 14, on a 12 with Combat Advantage. This is the best to hit class, maxxed out with Demigod (instead of Sly Trickster), has the best possible magic weapon at his level, and he has a reasonable change to hit a hard encounter foe. Other PCs do not have this, but he does.

You have forgotten about a Dagger's base proficiency bonus, so his attack should be 3 higher than you have listed.

 

[Ryujin]

What happens if the Rogue does not start with an 18 Dex (like the Tiefling in our group)? Or does not take Demigod (which many Rogues might not)? Or only has a +4 magic weapon at level 22 (which is quite possible based on magic item distribution)?

Then, much like my Warlock that started with a 16 CHA and is still using a +1 implement at 8th level, he doesn't hit for beans. I'm really starting to notice the disparity now, as we just faced a few battles in which a cult's THUGS has 22 STR and beat on us mercilessly. Missing a +1 here and there shouldn't be a make/break and it tends to be painful for someone like me who plays the character, not the math.

 

[KarinsDad]

You have forgotten about a Dagger's base proficiency bonus, so his attack should be 3 higher than you have listed.

Yup. Doh!

I realized that later on, but did not have a chance to get back to it.

Still, the maxxed out Rogue (who gets the big +3 boost going against Reflex instead of AC) needs a 9 to 11. Other PCs do not.

 

[KarinsDad]

Then, much like my Warlock that started with a 16 CHA and is still using a +1 implement at 8th level, he doesn't hit for beans. I'm really starting to notice the disparity now, as we just faced a few battles in which a cult's THUGS has 22 STR and beat on us mercilessly. Missing a +1 here and there shouldn't be a make/break and it tends to be painful for someone like me who plays the character, not the math.

This is brutal.

As DM, I had an enemy with a +1 Dagger (forget the name, the weapon from AV where it increases +1 to hit on each miss). After the 2nd level 16 Dex Rogue killed him, the Rogue ended up with the dagger. I have 5 indentations and a gem in the hilt to clue the player in that he can have the Arcane ritual PC improve the bonus to hit in the future. This worked out well for this particular player since he prefers to have items that improve over time for the same PC instead of finding new items and swapping old out for new.

 

[catsclaw227]

Didn't Mearls say there would be a Design & Development article on these Expertise feats in the near future (maybe even this month?)

That will, at least, shed some light on the situation.

 

[grickherder]

Why I do not see the problem...Well to put it blunt no one who doesn't do the math sees it in play (and by no one I mean not a noticeable %, you would think here, WotC and RPGnet would be full of “My epic character can’t hit” threads) because as powers and items scale PCs have more options.

You nailed it. And your real game examples are perfectly appropriate. I'm finding it to be exactly the same way. The whole expertise scare is a good example of theoretical problems that don't exist in actual play.

Expertise is a nice useful feat for those sub-optimal builds but hardly necessary for those builds that already hit enough. The rogue with multiple ways of getting combat advantage with a subsequent +14 to attack vs reflex at level 4 (+5 for dex, +4 for dagger, +2 for combat advantage, +2 for level, +1 for magic dagger) should hardly bother with it.

 

[Drudenfusz]

Expertise is a nice useful feat for those sub-optimal builds but hardly necessary for those builds that already hit enough. The rogue with multiple ways of getting combat advantage with a subsequent +14 to attack vs reflex at level 4 (+5 for dex, +4 for dagger, +2 for combat advantage, +2 for level, +1 for magic dagger) should hardly bother with it.

At Level 6 I have taken the Feat for my RPGA Rogue (before the PHB2 I have thought about taking Nimble Blade, but Weapon Expertise is by far the better choice)...

 

[Regicide]

Expertise is a nice useful feat for those sub-optimal builds but hardly necessary for those builds that already hit enough. The rogue with multiple ways of getting combat advantage with a subsequent +14 to attack vs reflex at level 4 (+5 for dex, +4 for dagger, +2 for combat advantage, +2 for level, +1 for magic dagger) should hardly bother with it.

Except, as has been shown, repeatedly, in this thread, that it's, if not the best, among the top 3 or 5 feats, for ANY character, even ones that are already hitting more than 50% of the time. This is why it's called a feat tax, since every single character should take this feat.