I am sure that this "MMO experience" will be rather new to all those ppl who were playing rules-lite games where the rules are streamlined and get out of the way.
The iPhone Will Kill D&D
- Thread starter JoeGKushner
- Start date
I am sure that this "MMO experience" will be rather new to all those ppl who were playing rules-lite games where the rules are streamlined and get out of the way.
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
The way I see it, tabletop RPG's have potentially three things going for them:
1. In-person interactivity. Nothing beats sitting down at a table with your friends, in person. If your friends are scattered around the country or world, however, that's a little different.
2. The processing power of a real live person. As Umbran alluded, people can come up with far more ideas of what to do than any programmer can prepare for, and I don't see this going away. I do think you could program a sufficiently interactive world so that you could cover 95% of the possibilities, however. WoW has proven that this is not an insurmountable problem - or that the bells and whistles can lead one to decide that the limitation on actions is overruled by the benefits that an online world can provide.
3. Props. Miniatures, scenery, mood lighting - these are all things that can't be exactly replicated online. I see TTRPG's becoming more friendly to thse kinds of things - you can't pirate a piece of dwarven forge scenery. You can't pirate a battlemat.
If someone created a WoW-style game that allowed the players to truly create their own content, or create their own sub-servers where they could create a persistent world for their friends or like-minded folks (imagine an ENWorld server, where only ENWorlders could play, for example), that would be the next step towards making TTRPG's obsolete. However, due to the points above, I don't think it will ever go away. Diminish perhaps, but not go away.
1. In-person interactivity. Nothing beats sitting down at a table with your friends, in person. If your friends are scattered around the country or world, however, that's a little different.
2. The processing power of a real live person. As Umbran alluded, people can come up with far more ideas of what to do than any programmer can prepare for, and I don't see this going away. I do think you could program a sufficiently interactive world so that you could cover 95% of the possibilities, however. WoW has proven that this is not an insurmountable problem - or that the bells and whistles can lead one to decide that the limitation on actions is overruled by the benefits that an online world can provide.
3. Props. Miniatures, scenery, mood lighting - these are all things that can't be exactly replicated online. I see TTRPG's becoming more friendly to thse kinds of things - you can't pirate a piece of dwarven forge scenery. You can't pirate a battlemat.
If someone created a WoW-style game that allowed the players to truly create their own content, or create their own sub-servers where they could create a persistent world for their friends or like-minded folks (imagine an ENWorld server, where only ENWorlders could play, for example), that would be the next step towards making TTRPG's obsolete. However, due to the points above, I don't think it will ever go away. Diminish perhaps, but not go away.
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
Hey Hong! Long time, no see!
I think the point would be that the rules could be extremely complex, and yet totally transparent to the players. You could achieve a rules-lite experience at the table while having a ridiculously involved system behind it.
ShinHakkaider
Adventurer
I think that to an extent Joe is right. I don't think actual tabletop gaming is going to go away, but it is definitely going to change with the proliferation of these gadgets. It already has.
Despite the cry of apparent sacrilege in using computerized dice rollers, I think if people can get over the actual various rulesets of the games changing drastically every 5 or so years they'll get over using different tools in which we play those games.
Someone above mentioned the ability to spread out 6 to 9 pieces of information in front of him and how a computer cant do that due to limited real estate on the screen. I''m not going to call call
on that one because everyone's brain processes information differently. But I can tell you on OS X I can have multiple apps (with multiple pages open in each app) and jump to those pages relatively easily. It depends on your level of proficiency I guess. I do the initial investment of time in learning how something works to make my life easier in the long run. Some people dont feel that initial investment is worth while, I work with users and see this everyday so I get it. But there are ways to use a computer (no matter what OS you prefer) to make your work a little more streamlined than it was before.
I also wasnt fond of computerized dice rollers either, but if I'm on the train or on my lunch break at work and I'm working on something for a game or even when I'm at home and don't feel like getting up off of the couch to find my dice bag, that dice roller is a big help.
There's also something that very few gamers here have touched on that to me is the main bane of tabletop gaming. Moreso than edition wars of swiftly shifting rulesets. REAL LIFE.
I've found as I've gotten older it's harder to get together with friends to game. It just is. I live and work in NYC and am married with a child. There are a million things going on in our lives as well as with our friends. The times where I can lay out time to game may be inconvenient for other people in the group. Or in some cases our central meeting point (in Manhattan) might be unavailable. When you have people in your group who are coming from NJ and Kew Gardens Queens, it's a pain in the ass to have them travel from one extreme to another. It just is. Some of you don't mind, but when for some people time is a premium it's just not feasible.
My point is as people get older they get busier or they relocate. And these devices and tech that some of you so casually disparage are a link to keeping gaming alive for more and more of us. In 10 or 20 years as gamers we'll either be deeper in the the tech to facilitate play or the hobby will shrink even further.
WOTC has (had?) the right idea as far as their digital game table goes. I don't think they're the ones to properly implement it as their track record is pretty bad. But they understand something that almost no one in this thread is even addressing, to keep gaming alive you have to keep gamers TOGETHER. And as we get older and busier that gets harder to do. What can and WILL fill that gap is technology. The same overhyped pieces of crap that you're talking about right now. I'd love to play a mini session over wi-fi on my lunch break or on the train home, with my buddies. I'd love to pull an all-nighter again like I used to when in school, except now instead of being there we would be able to do it via a mobile version of Fantasy Grounds or D20Pro.
So again I think Joe is right, I just think that it's gonna happen sooner than 10-20 years.
Despite the cry of apparent sacrilege in using computerized dice rollers, I think if people can get over the actual various rulesets of the games changing drastically every 5 or so years they'll get over using different tools in which we play those games.
Someone above mentioned the ability to spread out 6 to 9 pieces of information in front of him and how a computer cant do that due to limited real estate on the screen. I''m not going to call call
on that one because everyone's brain processes information differently. But I can tell you on OS X I can have multiple apps (with multiple pages open in each app) and jump to those pages relatively easily. It depends on your level of proficiency I guess. I do the initial investment of time in learning how something works to make my life easier in the long run. Some people dont feel that initial investment is worth while, I work with users and see this everyday so I get it. But there are ways to use a computer (no matter what OS you prefer) to make your work a little more streamlined than it was before. I also wasnt fond of computerized dice rollers either, but if I'm on the train or on my lunch break at work and I'm working on something for a game or even when I'm at home and don't feel like getting up off of the couch to find my dice bag, that dice roller is a big help.
There's also something that very few gamers here have touched on that to me is the main bane of tabletop gaming. Moreso than edition wars of swiftly shifting rulesets. REAL LIFE.
I've found as I've gotten older it's harder to get together with friends to game. It just is. I live and work in NYC and am married with a child. There are a million things going on in our lives as well as with our friends. The times where I can lay out time to game may be inconvenient for other people in the group. Or in some cases our central meeting point (in Manhattan) might be unavailable. When you have people in your group who are coming from NJ and Kew Gardens Queens, it's a pain in the ass to have them travel from one extreme to another. It just is. Some of you don't mind, but when for some people time is a premium it's just not feasible.
My point is as people get older they get busier or they relocate. And these devices and tech that some of you so casually disparage are a link to keeping gaming alive for more and more of us. In 10 or 20 years as gamers we'll either be deeper in the the tech to facilitate play or the hobby will shrink even further.
WOTC has (had?) the right idea as far as their digital game table goes. I don't think they're the ones to properly implement it as their track record is pretty bad. But they understand something that almost no one in this thread is even addressing, to keep gaming alive you have to keep gamers TOGETHER. And as we get older and busier that gets harder to do. What can and WILL fill that gap is technology. The same overhyped pieces of crap that you're talking about right now. I'd love to play a mini session over wi-fi on my lunch break or on the train home, with my buddies. I'd love to pull an all-nighter again like I used to when in school, except now instead of being there we would be able to do it via a mobile version of Fantasy Grounds or D20Pro.
So again I think Joe is right, I just think that it's gonna happen sooner than 10-20 years.
ShinHakkaider
Adventurer
Also...
One other thing:
I hear alot about getting younger players involved with RPG's and honestly most of the time i think it's just lip service for most. There are a few of you I think that honestly believe that it's a good thing and this is for you guys:
Do you really think the young people today who you pull into the fold are going to be limited by your standards of what gaming is? Most of them already understand that they can play a great game with their friends with out their friends actually being there. They'll be smart enough to understand that, Yes optimally having people in the room with you is best, but they definitely wont poo-poo the concept of using tech to facilitate their game as some of you here have done.
And with that and them, the game and how we play it will evolve.
The same way that if you put a copy of red book basic next to 4th Edition and see the evolution of the rule set, is gonna be the same way how we play the game will change.
If how we play the game doenst evolve fewer and few of us will play or pass the gift that are RPG's down. I mean if I mention RPG's to other people in real space theyre either thinking of things like "final Fantasy" or even worse "second Life" or "Baldurs Gate / Neverwinter Nights". I was at dinner with an acquaintance and her husband a few weeks ago and were talking about our geek interests. When I mentioned that I still played role playing games, he husband responded with "like dungeons and dragons?, That's still around?".
That response is pretty typical when I tell people that I play. Even within what you would think are otherwise knowledgeable geek circles.
One other thing:
I hear alot about getting younger players involved with RPG's and honestly most of the time i think it's just lip service for most. There are a few of you I think that honestly believe that it's a good thing and this is for you guys:
Do you really think the young people today who you pull into the fold are going to be limited by your standards of what gaming is? Most of them already understand that they can play a great game with their friends with out their friends actually being there. They'll be smart enough to understand that, Yes optimally having people in the room with you is best, but they definitely wont poo-poo the concept of using tech to facilitate their game as some of you here have done.
And with that and them, the game and how we play it will evolve.
The same way that if you put a copy of red book basic next to 4th Edition and see the evolution of the rule set, is gonna be the same way how we play the game will change.
If how we play the game doenst evolve fewer and few of us will play or pass the gift that are RPG's down. I mean if I mention RPG's to other people in real space theyre either thinking of things like "final Fantasy" or even worse "second Life" or "Baldurs Gate / Neverwinter Nights". I was at dinner with an acquaintance and her husband a few weeks ago and were talking about our geek interests. When I mentioned that I still played role playing games, he husband responded with "like dungeons and dragons?, That's still around?".
That response is pretty typical when I tell people that I play. Even within what you would think are otherwise knowledgeable geek circles.
JVisgaitis
Explorer
Like Morrus said, I think a phone is too small for something like this. I could see Augmented Reality playing into this though. See this link: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHkUOpYNhoM]YouTube - Augmented Reality Encyclopedia[/ame]
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
YES!
And my players can use their iPhone to have the beer delivered directly to my house instead of carrying it over by hand.
And my players can use their iPhone to have the beer delivered directly to my house instead of carrying it over by hand.
There's a whole bunch of loose ideas running around, here's some more:
Hong's "MMO that people could make sub-servers" (paraphrased) was called NeverWinter Nights. While a cool idea, did it really take off? Did it replace table-top gaming?
No, and here's why: The technology requirements were too steep for a majority to use. That's not saying y'all didn't play it. The problem was getting everyone in your gaming group to have the right technology to play the game. Everyone had to have a newer PC with a GOOD video card. Everyone had to have broad-band internet. Everyone actually had to know how to connect to a network game session.
There's plenty here (most of us on an internet forum are tech saavy) that can get our home rig ready. Try getting your entire gaming group ready. That's like being the IT guy for your gaming group. If your entire gaming group was as tech saavy, they'd be on this forum. And given how much people complain about their gaming group, it's obvious that they don't think their gaming group is online.
From all the "virtual tabletop" apps I've looked at, they all look cumbersome enough that half of my gaming group would get confused and frustrated just trying to connect to the game. One of my friends is running a Win98 box with dial-up in the woods, another a Mac. Another is a Luddite high-school CompSci teacher (seriously). Half of them of in another state (trying helping them figure out how to install Java Runtime on a Mac, so they can run the same app).
Part of the problem is that there's some many flavors of the technology, and it's not a priority to everyone. So getting your entire group onboard, so you can use the same app and get "networking" synergy is very hard to do.
Whereas, running just your character on a device, with no connection to other players is the easiest to get working. And even there, the applications fail. I have yet to find an app that makes it easy to play D&D. I've seen plenty of apps for managing your PC between games, or for creating the adventure. But they are all too cumbersome for use during the game.
For folks harping on the iPhone, just get an iPod Touch. It's the same thing, without the phone and related baggage... On the Kindle, it's an eBook. That technology is still changing. It will get better. In time, a product that looks like a cross between a Kindle/eReader and an iPod Touch will emerge. That'll solve that problem of small, but not too small, readable, yet useful.
Personally, here's what I found to work, to some extent:
d20srd.org. One of the best sites for looking up game rules/stats. Works good on a laptop at the game table
MS Word: I write my adventures in it, and run them straight off the screen. I include hyperlinks to d20srd.org for things I'll need. It's not perfect, but I haven't found an app I like for managing my adventures AND running them
MS Excel: I put my PC into my hand-built spreadsheet. It has just the fields I need, where I need them (I use tabs for different aspects like inventory, stats, skills, combat, spells). An app to do JUST this, with quick access to the screens, simple UI for healing/damaging, and simple controls for adding/removing equipment (shopping/using supplies) would be awesome.
mIRC: a long time ago, a part of my group played online. We used IRC chat. The DM was the least tech saavy, we sent him to a web-chat site (hosted by my ISP), and the rest of us used mIRC with some handy scripts to manage our hitpoints and weapon stats (AC/THAC0). The reason that it worked is that our scripts ONLY managed hitpoints and stats. It wasn't trying to abjudicate the entire game. It handled the basic "heal Janx 5" and "Janx attack sword" to tell the GM how many HP I had left, and what I rolled with my weapon bonuses.
In none of these examples, were a dice roller needed. The only time automated dice rolling is useful, is when it's integrated with the parts that "know and need" the bonuses and die results. Just rolling virtual dice is useless.
Can an iPhone app do all that? I'd hate to GM from such a tiny screen, I need more info than that. It might be OK for PC management, if there was a good app for it (that didn't get sued out of business by WotC). It'd be a pain for typing text (that keyboard is small). Buttons could be made, however...
I don't see an iPhone app coming out. WotC keeps a choke hold on software, even in the 3.x days, that makes it cumbersome (you have to display the rules, etc).
Hong's "MMO that people could make sub-servers" (paraphrased) was called NeverWinter Nights. While a cool idea, did it really take off? Did it replace table-top gaming?
No, and here's why: The technology requirements were too steep for a majority to use. That's not saying y'all didn't play it. The problem was getting everyone in your gaming group to have the right technology to play the game. Everyone had to have a newer PC with a GOOD video card. Everyone had to have broad-band internet. Everyone actually had to know how to connect to a network game session.
There's plenty here (most of us on an internet forum are tech saavy) that can get our home rig ready. Try getting your entire gaming group ready. That's like being the IT guy for your gaming group. If your entire gaming group was as tech saavy, they'd be on this forum. And given how much people complain about their gaming group, it's obvious that they don't think their gaming group is online.
From all the "virtual tabletop" apps I've looked at, they all look cumbersome enough that half of my gaming group would get confused and frustrated just trying to connect to the game. One of my friends is running a Win98 box with dial-up in the woods, another a Mac. Another is a Luddite high-school CompSci teacher (seriously). Half of them of in another state (trying helping them figure out how to install Java Runtime on a Mac, so they can run the same app).
Part of the problem is that there's some many flavors of the technology, and it's not a priority to everyone. So getting your entire group onboard, so you can use the same app and get "networking" synergy is very hard to do.
Whereas, running just your character on a device, with no connection to other players is the easiest to get working. And even there, the applications fail. I have yet to find an app that makes it easy to play D&D. I've seen plenty of apps for managing your PC between games, or for creating the adventure. But they are all too cumbersome for use during the game.
For folks harping on the iPhone, just get an iPod Touch. It's the same thing, without the phone and related baggage...
On the Kindle, it's an eBook. That technology is still changing. It will get better. In time, a product that looks like a cross between a Kindle/eReader and an iPod Touch will emerge. That'll solve that problem of small, but not too small, readable, yet useful.Personally, here's what I found to work, to some extent:
d20srd.org. One of the best sites for looking up game rules/stats. Works good on a laptop at the game table
MS Word: I write my adventures in it, and run them straight off the screen. I include hyperlinks to d20srd.org for things I'll need. It's not perfect, but I haven't found an app I like for managing my adventures AND running them
MS Excel: I put my PC into my hand-built spreadsheet. It has just the fields I need, where I need them (I use tabs for different aspects like inventory, stats, skills, combat, spells). An app to do JUST this, with quick access to the screens, simple UI for healing/damaging, and simple controls for adding/removing equipment (shopping/using supplies) would be awesome.
mIRC: a long time ago, a part of my group played online. We used IRC chat. The DM was the least tech saavy, we sent him to a web-chat site (hosted by my ISP), and the rest of us used mIRC with some handy scripts to manage our hitpoints and weapon stats (AC/THAC0). The reason that it worked is that our scripts ONLY managed hitpoints and stats. It wasn't trying to abjudicate the entire game. It handled the basic "heal Janx 5" and "Janx attack sword" to tell the GM how many HP I had left, and what I rolled with my weapon bonuses.
In none of these examples, were a dice roller needed. The only time automated dice rolling is useful, is when it's integrated with the parts that "know and need" the bonuses and die results. Just rolling virtual dice is useless.
Can an iPhone app do all that? I'd hate to GM from such a tiny screen, I need more info than that. It might be OK for PC management, if there was a good app for it (that didn't get sued out of business by WotC). It'd be a pain for typing text (that keyboard is small). Buttons could be made, however...
I don't see an iPhone app coming out. WotC keeps a choke hold on software, even in the 3.x days, that makes it cumbersome (you have to display the rules, etc).
For folks harping on the iPhone, just get an iPod Touch. It's the same thing, without the phone and related baggage...
I kinda need a phone...
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