Indeed. What other edifications can I provide?Like your edification in the other thread!
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Forked Thread: GTS 2009 D&D Seminar - 4e video game
- Thread starter xechnao
- Start date
No, a game almost totally unlike Final Fantasy. FF is the canonical example of a railroaded JRPG. Cadfan is talking about the polar opposite.So a game like final fantasy only with combat being like 4e?
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The only "huge" equipment management that I recall was juggling the 500 arrows and 4 suits of plate armour (per person) you picked up as loot. Inventory management, in other words. If you were chewing through consumables at such a rate of knots, you were definitely playing some other Baldurs Gate to me.
Nonsense. As said, spells and consumables already exist in 4E, they are not overwhelming anyone now, and they will not overwhelm anyone in a videogame where the computer can do all the bookkeeping for you.
Nonsense. If it was possible with 2E, which had an even bigger potential disparity in power level depending on how many daily spells you'd used, then it is most definitely possible in 4E, where everyone has a basic minimum of at-wills and encounter powers in reserve.
Then your point is invalid, because ppl are already using (not thinking, using) the 4E rules with built-in consumable items and daily equipment recharge. Clearly there is more to heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy, xechnow.
Cant you shut up for a moment before posting and just try to think what I am talking about for a second so I can take notice that you did and we are not talking past each other here? By your evergoing attitude it would not seemt to interest you such a thing really, does it? Poor me, that's the last effort I am pulling with this matter with you. There may be consumable resources in 4e but they do not have the same managing effort for players they had in previous editions as far as the flow of the game goes. You can only think so much and playing is about thinking. If the computer keeps track and manages it for you and then it is a non gameplay factor. So what will it be the gameplay factor? 4e combat tactics for one thing if we want it to be a 4e game. Can we add more stuff? You can but with everything you add the gameplay and approach changes. To put it methodologically or even philosophically haven't you ever heard the phrase "more with less"? It makes a significant part of design and engagement with interactive media.
PS: hong, sorry for this but I am starting to feel tired and a bit of annoyed.
No, a game almost totally unlike Final Fantasy. FF is the canonical example of a railroaded JRPG. Cadfan is talking about the polar opposite.
But what is he talking about? Any actual, concrete example? I still fail to see something concrete here.
There may be consumable resources in 4e but they do not have the same managing effort for players they had in previous editions as far as the flow of the game goes. You can only think so much and playing is about thinking. If the computer keeps track and manages it for you and then it is a non gameplay factor.
I have no idea what on earth that is supposed to mean. Just because the computer tracks spells and consumables (I assume that's what you're referring to, since that's where I brought up the computer handling bookkeeping) means they're no longer a gameplay factor? WTF? By this reasoning, because the computer tracks hit points, that means they're also no longer a gameplay factor... again, WTF?
So what will it be the gameplay factor? 4e combat tactics for one thing if we want it to be a 4e game. Can we add more stuff? You can but with everything you add the gameplay and approach changes.
Nobody is "adding more stuff".
If you mean adding stuff that isn't in the 4E rules: Consumables are already part of 4E. Daily item powers are already part of 4E. Daily spells/class powers are already part of 4E.
Nor is it a case of adding stuff that wasn't in BG. 4E Daily powers? Check. 4E at-wills? They just substitute for standard sword swings. 4E encounter powers? Trivial to handle in a videogame, where what constitutes an encounter can be programmatically defined.
I have no idea where you're getting this "add more stuff" from. The only major part of 4E that would be problematic for a videogame is immediate actions, and you solved that neatly in this very thread.
To put it methodologically or even philosophically haven't you ever heard the phrase "more with less"? It makes a significant part of design and engagement with interactive media.
Certainly. But nothing that you have written shows that building a BG-ish game using 4E would contravene that principle.
But what is he talking about? Any actual, concrete example? I still fail to see something concrete here.
Cadfan is talking about providing multiple paths through a level, rather than the single path that many modern CRPGs use.
I have no idea what on earth that is supposed to mean. Just because the computer tracks spells and consumables (I assume that's what you're referring to, since that's where I brought up the computer handling bookkeeping) means they're no longer a gameplay factor? WTF? By this reasoning, because the computer tracks hit points, that means they're also no longer a gameplay factor... again, WTF?
The computer does not track the ways and whys to decide regarding the use of spells and consumables. Game design does this and hands over the responsibility to the player to do this through his management. The computer tracks the actual results of the players decisions decisions and informs the player. You can have so much meaningful choices. Too much of them will make for either a difficult game design or a game gameplay wise -depending from your POV.
Nobody is "adding more stuff".
If you mean adding stuff that isn't in the 4E rules: Consumables are already part of 4E. Daily item powers are already part of 4E. Daily spells/class powers are already part of 4E.
Nor is it a case of adding stuff that wasn't in BG. 4E Daily powers? Check. 4E at-wills? They just substitute for standard sword swings. 4E encounter powers? Trivial to handle in a videogame, where what constitutes an encounter can be programmatically defined.
I have no idea where you're getting this "add more stuff" from.
Certainly. But nothing that you have written shows that building a BG-ish game using 4E would contravene that principle.
Add things to the gameplay, to the development and flow of the game gameplay wise. One thing for sure is plot and this is dynamic. Another is the tactics of 4e. Tactics can be engaging by their own merit in an almost dynamic fashion. Now you have to tie these things and balance-reflect against each other in a meanigful way for the long run. For me not an easy task if you want to make the most out of them (an interesting dynamic plot and ever dynamic combats). Now could you add other things more appropriate for this "marriage"? What other things could you add here and tie it to the rest in an equally meaningfull way for the player to balance against each other and succeedding to have a good performance regarding the results (interesting results for the player?). I do not see it how it could be done really: this addition would not solve the first problem, it would just end up adding another just for the reason it does not manage to solve the first problem.
Cadfan is talking about providing multiple paths through a level, rather than the single path that many modern CRPGs use.
What is this level? Is this level the respective chapters in BG?
The computer does not track the ways and whys to decide regarding the use of spells and consumables. Game design does this and hands over the responsibility to the player to do this through his management. The computer tracks the actual results of the players decisions decisions and informs the player. You can have so much meaningful choices. Too much of them will make for either a difficult game design or a game gameplay wise -depending from your POV.
You do not have too many choices. You have exactly as many choices as you did in BG. And you have exactly as many choices as in p&p 4E, and noone is being overwhelmed. Well, I guess it's always possible that they are and I just haven't seen it, but I wouldn't count on it.
Nor is game design rendered more difficult by having 4E powers and consumables in the one framework. If they could make it work for 2E, where encounter difficulty scales across a drastically wider range (compare if an 18th level mage is on full, and if they're on empty), then they can most certainly make it work for 4E.
Add things to the gameplay, to the development and flow of the game gameplay wise.
And I thought early on, you were saying to add more things to the game, to attract more than just "hardcore fans". But now you appear to be reversing your position. This is intriguing.
One thing for sure is plot and this is dynamic. Another is the tactics of 4e. Tactics can be engaging by their own merit in an almost dynamic fashion. Now you have to tie these things and balance-reflect against each other in a meanigful way for the long run. For me not an easy task if you want to make the most out of them (an interesting dynamic plot and ever dynamic combats).
It may not be an easy task for you, but it certainly seems to be easy enough for everyone else. As said, this is all already a part of 4E.
Now could you add other things more appropriate for this "marriage"? What other things could you add here and tie it to the rest in an equally meaningfull way for the player to balance against each other and succeedding to have a good performance regarding the results (interesting results for the player?). I do not see it how it could be done really: this addition would not solve the first problem, it would just end up adding another just for the reason it does not manage to solve the first problem.
It can be done just by following the standard encounter guidelines. You know, the ones that ppl are using right now to build 4E adventures and modules. That would be doubly true for professional game designers, who are paid to make these things work. Perhaps you should consider whether you are the best benchmark for gauging whether this task is difficult.
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A level is a discrete, self-contained gameplay environment that acts as the basic building block of a game. If you haven't, perhaps you should play a few modern games to familiarise yourself with the subject matter.What is this level? Is this level the respective chapters in BG?
