Can a summoned creature (i.e., demon) further gate in others?

[NewJeffCT]

I am pretty sure that the summoned demon my players just encountered (cliffhanger ending to the last session when a marilith burst through the undergrowth...) cannot further gate in others of its ilk.

Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day a marilith can attempt to summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrou, or one nalfeshnee with a 50% chance of success, or one glabrezu or another marilith with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 5th-level spell.

However, I cannot find the exact rule for this. One of my players contacted me via email about it being a certain TPK because the marilith can then summon some hezrou and will be able to add flanking to all of its attacks, in addition to hezrou being pretty tough by themselves... when I told him about the rule, he insisted I was not correct and that if I play the marilith correctly, it should summon more demons.

(don't ask me why he wants a TPK, but I've always tried to be by the book...)

 

[Starbuck_II]

I am pretty sure that the summoned demon my players just encountered (cliffhanger ending to the last session when a marilith burst through the undergrowth...) cannot further gate in others of its ilk.

Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day a marilith can attempt to summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrou, or one nalfeshnee with a 50% chance of success, or one glabrezu or another marilith with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 5th-level spell.

However, I cannot find the exact rule for this. One of my players contacted me via email about it being a certain TPK because the marilith can then summon some hezrou and will be able to add flanking to all of its attacks, in addition to hezrou being pretty tough by themselves... when I told him about the rule, he insisted I was not correct and that if I play the marilith correctly, it should summon more demons.

(don't ask me why he wants a TPK, but I've always tried to be by the book...)

No, summoned creatures can't. Called creatures can.

How did it get created into being there? Did someone used Planar Binding (a call effect) or Summon Monster Y (Y standing for whatever level).

It is in the DMG/SRD:

A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour. A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour. Most creatures with the ability to summon do not use it lightly, since it leaves them beholden to the summoned creature. In general, they use it only when necessary to save their own lives. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Concentration checks and attempts to dispel the summoned creature. No experience points are awarded for summoned monsters.

I'll quote the most important aspect: A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour.

Since Summon Monster spells have a duration in rounds and Summon ability has a duration of 1 hr: it is impossible for a Summon being to summon others.

The Planar Binding spells get around this limitation as they are a Calling effect not summoning.

 

[NewJeffCT]

No, summoned creatures can't. Called creatures can.

How did it get created into being there? Did someone used Planar Binding (a call effect) or Summon Monster Y (Y standing for whatever level).

It is in the DMG/SRD:


I'll quote the most important aspect: A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour.

Since Summon Monster spells have a duration in rounds and Summon ability has a duration of 1 hr: it is impossible for a Summon being to summon others.

The Planar Binding spells get around this limitation as they are a Calling effect not summoning.

the summoned creature has been trapped within the summoning circle for hundreds of years... so, that's certainly more than an hour. So, I would guess some sort of binding spell?

 

[Arkhandus]

You can find the relevant passages here and here in the SRD. Summoned critters of any sort cannot use their own summoning abilities, regardless of how they were summoned.

 

[NewJeffCT]

You can find the relevant passages here and here in the SRD. Summoned critters of any sort cannot use their own summoning abilities, regardless of how they were summoned.

Thanks - I must have been looking in the wrong places.

 

[risner]

I am pretty sure that the summoned demon my players just encountered (cliffhanger ending to the last session when a marilith burst through the undergrowth...) cannot further gate in others of its ilk.

MMI page 315
"A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour."

Edit: just noticed this was already answered... sorry to bump

 

[allenw]

the summoned creature has been trapped within the summoning circle for hundreds of years... so, that's certainly more than an hour. So, I would guess some sort of binding spell?

It sounds very much like you're talking about what the rules term a "Called" creature, not a "Summoned" creature. The various "Monster Summoning" spells do not use, nor would they benefit from, a summoning circle, and there's no core way to keep a "Summoned" creature around for long.
In which case, the Marilith was probably Called by something like a "Planar Binding" spell, and confined within a "Magic Circle against Evil"-type calling diagram (with DM handwaving to explain how it stayed trapped for so long). Meaning that, by rules as written, it *can* use it's own Summon power, and also meaning that it (though not anything it Summons) will really die if slain.
If you don't *want* it to use it's Summon power, hey, you're the DM. You can have it automatically fail its Summon chance, or just rule that whatever circumstance kept it stuck for so long also supressed its Summon power.

From Spell Descriptions :: d20srd.org

Calling
A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.
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Summoning
A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

 

[NewJeffCT]

thanks - the adventure I'm running has the demon as having been trapped there for hundreds of years, after having been summoned. I'll look up the exact text on that, however. I know they did not go into any logistics on how it was summoned or called, just that it was a painstaking & exacting process done by a powerful mage.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Adding this follow-up in a separate post. This is condensed from the module itself:

He went to the wizard and told him how he had once summoned the demon and imprisoned it in a binding circle. He thought he could do so again and force it to save the city, but while he had the true name and symbol of the demon still preserved, the circle of binding could not be drawn on the rough terrain inside the city... <snip> The wizard, however, did know how to create a stable binding circle, one that would last for centuries.

the module does not go into any game mechanics/specifics, other than the wizard spending many days cutting & laying out gems in a precise circular pattern, all placed in specific locations and each engraved with runic symbols.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Adding this follow-up in a separate post. This is condensed from the module itself:

He went to the wizard and told him how he had once summoned the demon and imprisoned it in a binding circle. He thought he could do so again and force it to save the city, but while he had the true name and symbol of the demon still preserved, the circle of binding could not be drawn on the rough terrain inside the city... <snip> The wizard, however, did know how to create a stable binding circle, one that would last for centuries.

the module does not go into any game mechanics/specifics, other than the wizard spending many days cutting & laying out gems in a precise circular pattern, all placed in specific locations and each engraved with runic symbols.

Very likely the wizard was epic: it is possible to do anything with the right spell seeds with epic magic. But below epic I can't immune a summon spell that lasts that long.

But that only works if the wizard had an epic spell slot...

How powerful is this wizard assumed to have been epic or lower?