Flanking Questions (and a few others)

[DracoSuave]

Onyx Dog isn't a summoning spell but it explicitly conjures a creature into existance. Thusly, it follows the rules for creatures unless otherwise stated. However:

If you’re affected by an effect that prevents you from taking opportunity actions, you don’t flank.

Conjured creatures lack basic attacks and therefore cannot make opportunity attacks.

As the effect that conjures the creature also prevents the creature from making opportunity attacks, it (Onyx Dog) cannot flank.

Mord's Sword isn't, however, a creature, and therefore does not flank by default.

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The paladin is right about how his mark works. And it's not -that- scary; the range on Divine Challenge isn't that large.

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Stinking Cloud can be used for autodamage at the cost of a minor and a move action. So, you can use it -and- attack, but you're not moving anywhere. That can be taken advantage of.

 

[fissionessence]

I would distinguish between why the dog can't make opportunity attacks. It's not that it's dazed, immobilized, stunned, etc.; its' that it just doesn't have a basic attack. Yes, it can't make opportunity attacks because it doesn't have a basic attack with which to do so, but that doesn't prevent it from taking opportunity actions. It doesn't have any opportunity actions to take, but it's theoretically capable of taking them.

~

 

[boar]

As the effect that conjures the creature also prevents the creature from making opportunity attacks, it (Onyx Dog) cannot flank.

This argument relies on sloppy terminology. There is a difference between opportunity actions and opportunity attacks. An opportunity attack is a type of opportunity action. This is crystal clear in the PHB:

"The one type of opportunity action that every combatant can take is an opportunity attack." (pg. 268)

As you quoted yourself, the Onyx Dog has an effect that prevents it from making opportunity attacks. The rules for flanking stipulate that both allies must be able to take opportunity actions. There is nothing that says the Onyx Dog can't take opportunity actions, so the argument against flanking based on the opportunity action requirement has no merit whatsoever.

Here are the other conditions for flanking, from page 285:

- Must be able to attack enemy
- Must be allies

Since the Onyx Dog has a power that lets it attack the enemy, the only way to argue that it doesn't provide flanking is to argue that it doesn't count as an ally. I don't see a way to disprove the "Conjurations aren't allies" argument, so those who like it may choose to use it, but it seems silly to me. I summoned a dog, I control it, it's on my side -- by the "spirit of the game" card, it's obviously an ally.

 

[Blizzardb]

I wrote to the Customer Service with a similar question recently. Here is their reply:

Hello. A conjuration in itself does not provide flanking. However, a conjuration power that makes an actual creature, like the Figurines of Wondrous Power on page 180 of the Adventurers Vault, will provide flanking because they are an ally.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Since the Onyx Dog has a power that lets it attack the enemy, the only way to argue that it doesn't provide flanking is to argue that it doesn't count as an ally. I don't see a way to disprove the "Conjurations aren't allies" argument, so those who like it may choose to use it, but it seems silly to me. I summoned a dog, I control it, it's on my side -- by the "spirit of the game" card, it's obviously an ally.

Then what about a flaming sphere or guardian of faith? Plus, allowing conjurations to provide flanks takes away a core advantage of summoned creatures. Another reason why it shouldnt work, the new storm pillar at will for the wizard in Arcane power. Who needs a fighter to risk an opportunity attack to get into flanking for the rogue wne the wizard can conjure a pillar that will provide flanking every round, at will. Not to mention the fact that conjurations cant be manipulated by anyone other than the caster, so there is no way to stop it.

There has to be a price for invulnerability, and I think its clear that the price is that a conjuration cant get the benefits of being an ally, and therefor cant flank.


PS. If you want to summon a dog, controll it, have it be an ally, summon it, dont conjure it.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

I wrote to the Customer Service with a similar question recently. Here is their reply:

Looking over the item again, it really should not be a conjuration and should be a summoned creature. It essentially follows all of the rules of a summoned creature (its not invulnerable, it can make attacks and checks, etc.) so I am personally just going to houserule that instead of the conjuration keyword it has the summoning keyword.

 

[DracoSuave]

There has to be a price for invulnerability, and I think its clear that the price is that a conjuration cant get the benefits of being an ally, and therefor cant flank.

When said conjuration is explicitly a creature, then it follows the rules for creatures. Summonings don't flank because they're summoning. It flanks because it's a creature.

The conjurations you describe are not creatures, so I'd agree with you there. And conjurations aren't invulnerable. Some powers explicitly target them and destroy them.

 

[abyssaldeath]

When said conjuration is explicitly a creature, then it follows the rules for creatures. Summonings don't flank because they're summoning. It flanks because it's a creature.

Nit Pick.

Summonings flank because they are allies.

✦ Opposite Sides: To flank an enemy, you and an ally
must be adjacent to the enemy and on opposite
sides or corners of the enemy’s space

 

[ForbidenMaster]

When said conjuration is explicitly a creature, then it follows the rules for creatures. Summonings don't flank because they're summoning. It flanks because it's a creature.

The conjurations you describe are not creatures, so I'd agree with you there. And conjurations aren't invulnerable. Some powers explicitly target them and destroy them.

Like what, dispell magic? Isnt that a high level daily? So once per day once you reach a high enough level you can counter something that a wizard can do at will from first level? Now I dont have my books with me, but how many monsters can dispell a conjuration from first level, or even at any level?

Now as I said in the post above yours, a conjuration that is explicitly a creature, ie figurines of wonderous power, are for all intents and purposes a summoned creautre because they use the same rules except for the fact that they dont explicity have clauses stating for instance that they are your ally. I am houseruling that those conjurations are summoned creatures instead.

But conjuration in and of themselves should not, and cannot flank, etc. as per my posts above.


PS. Creatures in and of themselves cant flank with other creatures. If they could, then you could flank with an enemy who is also a creature. As abyssaldeath said, summonings flank because they are allies.

 

[Dan'L]

1. I had a player playing a paladin that was convinced that he could mark monsters by tossing his hammers at a guy from a distance, behind cover and his party, so that the monster had to either:

A: Run at him, provoking OA's by the rest of the party

B: throw a ranged, taking a penalty or otherwise limiting him

OR

C: Take the damage from the mark

Does that work?????

Mostly, yes, but add:

D: Make an area/blast/burst attack that includes the Paladin as well as other targets.

E: Not attack anything, and take no damage from the mark. (The monster can take strategic movement, run away, find cover of it's own, etc. If your Paladin wants to cower, you can make him work a bit to have his mark find its full effect.)

-Dan'L