Can charisma be something more than just dump stat?

[Raven Crowking]

What's the rationale(s) for that RC?
I think I know:

But just checking.

Combat Advantage in RCFG allows you to use any skill in order to gain a combat bonus, if you can describe how it works. "I engage him in flashy reparte, hoping that he will attack less forcibly" is an example of how one might use a Charisma-based skill to increase AC.

You then make a Skill check against a DC chosen by you (higher DCs reflect more bonus). If successful, you get the bonus. If you fail, you lose the attack.


RC

 

[amysrevenge]

One thing to consider- if your created game system is meant to be robust enough to deal with players trying to eke out every bonus they can (in other words, a system that doesn't rely on the sense of fairplay of the players to maintain balance), then balancing mechanical advantages (other attributes are higher with dumped Charisma) with roleplaying disadvantages is never a good track to follow.

Linking Charisma to luck/fate/action dice as mentioned in the thread are all good mechanical ideas to help balance Charisma mechanically and not just with roleplaying.

 

[smetzger]

One thing I do...
On occasion there is the situation where there is no clear reason why a monster would attack one PC over another. Usually a DM will roll the dice to see who the monster attacks. I, however, have the monster always attack the PC with the lower Charisma.

 

[roguerouge]

But that's not how it really works in real life.

If you have a bunch of jerks, and one of them is smoother than the others and comes forward to talk to you, you don't forget the others are there.

That's actually not a bad idea for Charisma stat design. You're right, no matter how charming you are, if your friends are nudging each other and making lewd gestures, well, you're getting nowhere. Having negative charisma serve as a penalty to all ally social skill checks is actually kind of a neat concept. It could even apply to other skill checks, such as perception ("I can't here over Bob's belching!") and knowledge ("Must you do that? I'm trying to think!").

 

[Kask]

If I include Charisma as basic stat it will always end up becoming a dump stat.

Hmm, I've never had a sorc, bard or Pali use it as a dump stat.

 

[Akaiku]

That's actually not a bad idea for Charisma stat design. You're right, no matter how charming you are, if your friends are nudging each other and making lewd gestures, well, you're getting nowhere. Having negative charisma serve as a penalty to all ally social skill checks is actually kind of a neat concept. It could even apply to other skill checks, such as perception ("I can't here over Bob's belching!") and knowledge ("Must you do that? I'm trying to think!").

This has the problem of encouraging leaving the low charisma person in a box somewhere, similarly to leaving the low stealth people when you need to sneak. This is generally bad, as you will tend to get people who decide that since they aren't there and unable to do anything useful, they will run to the other room and play Haloz or something. Or perhaps use a laptop and play a different rpg online, which I've seen done.

 

[roguerouge]

The biggest problem with Charisma is that people tend to spend more time in battle then in scenarios with "charisma"-related abilities. If you can't change this premise, you need to make Charisma matter there. Henchmen and Cohorts might be a way. Magic might be. Willpower might be.

Actually, I think another approach is to make bonus spells and the difficulty to resist the spell based on two stats. Have spell acquisition be based on Intelligence or Wisdom, with Charisma/willpower affecting how well you cast it.

Yes, doing so is the dreaded split stat dependency, but martial characters depend on two or three different stats to be effective in combat (STR/CON for heavily armored melee brutes or DEX/CON finesse types or all three). It's only fair for casters to have the same dependency.

 

[roguerouge]

This has the problem of encouraging leaving the low charisma person in a box somewhere, similarly to leaving the low stealth people when you need to sneak. This is generally bad, as you will tend to get people who decide that since they aren't there and unable to do anything useful, they will run to the other room and play Haloz or something. Or perhaps use a laptop and play a different rpg online, which I've seen done.

Well, rude behavior at the table occurs regardless the rule set. But, basically, you can't have it both ways: you can't make a stat vital (charisma for social, dex for stealth) and inconsequential ("Sure, Mr. Enormous Tin-Can, come along on our scouting mission!"). DnD clearly chose mechanics that made charisma and scouting sub-optimal, but if the OP wants to change that then players will adapt by realizing that adequacy in Charisma and stealth is a part of optimization.

 

[Remathilis]

Hmm, I've never had a sorc, bard or Pali use it as a dump stat.

That's the irony; Charisma is a dump stat unless it isn't.

The problem has always been; if you were playing a class that didn't need a specific ability score, what does each score grant you?

Str: melee hit, damage, carrying, climb/athletics, feats of str (bending bars, opening doors)
Dex: AC, Reflex, Missile AC, stealth/thief skills, Init, avoid-falling-on-your-ass checks
Con: HP. Fort. More HP. Endurance/stamina checks. Did I mention HP?
Int: Knowledge Skills, Skill Points, Languages
Wis: Perception and Willpower
Cha: Social Skills

Lots of PC types don't need social skills: burly fighters, crude barbarians, brooding mages, silent rangers. As long as you have someone on the group who can handle diplomacy (such as a cleric, paladin or bard) you yourself rarely need to make checks. And since D&D is a team sport, the likelihood of being forced to parley with the king with only your 6 cha is fairly low (though not impossible).

Whereas you can't rely on the rogue's high dex to aid YOUR AC. Or the cleric's high wisdom to aid YOUR will save. They can, however, talk to the king on YOUR behalf.

 

[Kask]

The problem has always been; if you were playing a class that didn't need a specific ability score, what does each score grant you?

That's why I love the C&C saving throw system...