Will WotC ever get it right?

[Leatherhead]

A level 29 power doesn't -have- to be better than a level 25 power (altho that is definately nice.)

The reason is, is because a level 29 power doesn't replace a level 25 power, it replaces a level 15 power. You'll also notice that there's a lot of level 5 powers that are not more powerful than their level 1 equivalents. Or in Encounter Powers, often the level 1 powers are individually better than the level 3 powers.

Many builds, in fact, replace the level 3 power rather than the level 1 power at level 13.

If it comes up so often, in PHB and PHB2... how can you be certain it is a bug at all? Perhaps it's a feature.

So why not just take two level one powers? Or two level 25 powers? You can do that you know.

If this was intended, they didn't think it all the way through.

 

[Marshall]

I think you're excluding quite a few possibilities here.

I agree with you that one of these two powers is wrong. I don't agree that this means WotC is completely incompetent. Like we've repeated a few times, more eyeballs = more bugs caught. Someone has to own those eyeballs. In this case, it's you.

The question is, Why is it still my eyes?
WotC is skipping an integral part of the design process, and one that they recommend you do when designing your own powers, when they fail to make a basic comparison between powers of different levels.

The problem is made worse when you consider how build options narrow the field of comparable powers. Its less important for Dragon Magic powers to be consistent with Cosmic magic powers, but two Storm magic powers should always be compared side-by-side.

This isnt an error of subjectivity either. There is no debate over how valuable the slowed condition is vs dazed at a given level. We arent worried about burst 3 vs burst 2 and a die of damage. It literally is a case where a simple spreadsheet that lists all the attributes of a power, a tool that should be step 2 or 3 in the design process by now, would clearly show the error.

I never said WotC was incompetent, just disorganized. This type of spreadsheet should be a primary design tool with this many different powers running just to see what has and hasnt been done already and to make sure you dont forget to include an important attribute. It also lets those final editors see the whole picture instead of just focusing on one tiny piece.

...do you want to wait and see? Or have you reached a 100% definite conclusion?

The existence of power decks won't stop them from issuing errata, any more than the existence of the original books will.

-O

Well, I wouldnt stake my lifes savings on it. But I'd wager an adult beverage that they dont make any changes until 4.5e

 

[N0Man]

I never said WotC was incompetent, just disorganized...

It does seem pretty strongly implied to me, based on the bolded stuff below..

The question is, Why is it still my eyes?
WotC is skipping an integral part of the design process, and one that they recommend you do when designing your own powers, when they fail to make a basic comparison between powers of different levels.

The problem is made worse when you consider how build options narrow the field of comparable powers. Its less important for Dragon Magic powers to be consistent with Cosmic magic powers, but two Storm magic powers should always be compared side-by-side.

This isnt an error of subjectivity either. There is no debate over how valuable the slowed condition is vs dazed at a given level. We arent worried about burst 3 vs burst 2 and a die of damage. It literally is a case where a simple spreadsheet that lists all the attributes of a power, a tool that should be step 2 or 3 in the design process by now, would clearly show the error.

However, that's really neither here nor there.

You sound rather sure of the fact that there is absolutely no possible good reason that WotC could possibly choose to balance the powers the way they have, so therefor it is an obvious case of "disorganized".

I think your stand sounds quite presumptuous. It's possible you are right, but I think it's possible there are good reasons for the choice.

As it's pointed out many times already, you aren't likely to be replacing your level 25 power with a 29, but a lower level one.

Secondly, this has happened in older D&D games too. You may find a higher level spell that really close to being the same damage as a lower level spell. One could easily dismiss it because of that, but then again the damage type might matter more than the damage probabilities, and having another similar effect might be useful as well.

For example, are feats that affect Acid damage as numerous or as good as feats that affect Fire or Thunder damage?

I can't say what their reasons are, I'm not going to assume that there possibly be a good reason simply because I don't know what their reason is.

 

[Leatherhead]

As it's pointed out many times already, you aren't likely to be replacing your level 25 power with a 29, but a lower level one.

Replacing the level 25 power is not required for this comparison. At level 29 you when are replacing a lower level power, you have a choice to pick a level 29 daily power, or any lower level power you qualify for. This creates a direct competition between level 25 and 29 powers. You may not be replacing the level 25 power (because you never had it in the first place), but you are deciding not to have a level 25 power replace your lower level power. Think of it as an opportunity cost.

 

[x93edwards]

In general while I might agree that the way levels are set for powers in 4E seems to be all over the place, I do have a thought as to why Hellish Firestorm is Sor 29 even though it seems to be technically inferior to Acid Typhoon (Sor 25) when compared side-by-side.

Normally you can't take the same power more than once. For instance a 5th level wizard couldn't take Sleep (Daily Wiz Atk 1) twice. This is something that irked my group from the beginning and I've considered house-ruling otherwise.

At later levels there are Paragon and Epic abilities as well as magic items I think, that allow a character to double-up on a particular power. So while I don't like the idea and I probably would never do it, selecting Hellish Firestorm (Sor 29) essentially lets a sorcerer double-up on a Acid Typhoon (Sor 25), but obviously at the cost of a higher spell level, some loss of keywords and a slight drop in damage.

 

[-Avalon-]

The reason I did the spreadsheet is to show a possibility:

When leveling up, we expect stronger powers, and for the most part they are... in this case, we see two similar powers but one (the lower level one) is more powerful... Don't just pay attention to damage or secondary effects.

With sorcerers (and maybe other classes also), there is a lot of focus on damage type, hence the storm mage and the wild mage's random roll stuff... all the feats they get for adding damage based on what elements they are focusing on....

Is there a possibility that they expect people to pick two elements as a sorcerer and pretty much stay down that line? If so, the 25th level one is Acid, and the 29th level one was Thunder... how much damage does the next lower thunder power do, and how much does the 29th level acid one do? Compare Acid to Acid and Thunder to Thunder... possibility maybe?

 

[Nail]

Replacing the level 25 power is not required for this comparison. At level 29 you when are replacing a lower level power, you have a choice to pick a level 29 daily power, or any lower level power you qualify for. This creates a direct competition between level 25 and 29 powers.

Agreed.

As another - but Herioc Tier - example: The power Predator’s Flurry (Druid Attack 3) is very similar to Feast of Fury (Druid Attack 7)....in fact, I'd argue that the 3rd level power is (practically always) better than the 7th level. Why bother taking a 7th level power, when you can take another 3rd level power that's better?

Higher level powers should be better (in most circumstances) than lower level ones. Period. I dislike that this isn't always true.

 

[Puggins]

The rider feats for fire and thunder (resounding thunder) tend to be stronger than acid. I have a feeling that WotC had this on their mind while designing the powers. Not saying that it justifies the slightly numerically weaker level 29 power, but it should be taken into account.

 

[bganon]

The rider feats for fire and thunder (resounding thunder) tend to be stronger than acid. I have a feeling that WotC had this on their mind while designing the powers. Not saying that it justifies the slightly numerically weaker level 29 power, but it should be taken into account.

This! Storm Sorcs are one of the few builds that easily qualifies for Astral Fire, and an epic sorcerer who's even considering fire powers will have Surging Flame and/or Irresistible Flame. The equivalent feats for acid... don't exist.

For realistic character builds, it's simply not true that fire powers are always worse. Astral Fire alone puts the damage for Hellish Firestorm slightly above Acid Typhoon, and Surging Flame puts it way over the top.

This is a misunderstanding people often seem to have about 4e. You can't compare anything in isolation; you need to look at what's going to happen in actual play. It makes the whole thing much harder to playtest, and I'm hardly going to say that WOTC always gets it right. But I don't think they made a mistake here. The level 29 power looks weaker on paper than the level 25... but characters get to take feats.

 

[Marshall]

This! Storm Sorcs are one of the few builds that easily qualifies for Astral Fire, and an epic sorcerer who's even considering fire powers will have Surging Flame and/or Irresistible Flame. The equivalent feats for acid... don't exist.

Yet.

This logic is even worse from a design perspective since it means that every power you design has to take into account all existing feats and limits your creativity in the future.

This is a misunderstanding people often seem to have about 4e. You can't compare anything in isolation; you need to look at what's going to happen in actual play. It makes the whole thing much harder to playtest, and I'm hardly going to say that WOTC always gets it right. But I don't think they made a mistake here. The level 29 power looks weaker on paper than the level 25... but characters get to take feats.

Thats....thats absurd.
The ONLY way to even come close to having some form of balance in the game is to design in a vacuum. Powers are compared to powers. Feats are compared to feats. You cant compare power+feat to power because you looking at whole different scales of cost.