The Sandbox And The Grind

[HorusZA]

I have two questions for sandbox play:

1. How do you reduce the grind for low-level encounter? The outcome is not in doubt (unless you use needlefang drake swarms), but it will take a while to play out.

2. What do you do about low-level XP, and XP for wandering monsters? Pcs can grab a lot of XP without exposing themselves to real risk. Is that what we want for a sandbox game?

I don't think that the answer to your first question requires house rules, tweaking HP's or anything drastic like that. I think it's actually pretty straight forward:
Don't have the fight continue until the bitter end!
If the "outcome is not in doubt" why are the PC's opponents sticking around knowing that they'll just end up feeding the crows? Sure, if they're undead/plants/etc. this might not apply, but anyone with some sense of self-preservation will turn tail and run if they're getting the $@!& beaten out of them. It's not only more realistic and thematic (IMHO) but it will also save you wasting time on trying to get every single last HP down to zero.
Just my R0.02

 

[S'mon]

No, there isn't. But why hamstring your sandbox campaign so you can use 4E when you could sandbox a lot more combat encounters in the same time with a faster playing D&D? There are other, potentially better suited options out there. Here's a link to the Rules Cyclopedia at amazon, for instance.

I'd also bridle at the suggestion that "exploration=constant fighting" in gygax/mentzer/holmes etc D&D. "Constant fighting" is more a 4Eism. Try weird magical fountains in the woods, deserted battlefields with smoking boots in the mud and tracks leading away, areas inexplicably devoid of birds and animals, deadfalls and snares, statues with hidden treasure, a hedge wizard's cottage etc. as part of what I'd consider exploration of a true D&D wilderness.

I'm not disputing that exploration is better supported by BECMI D&D, in particular, and AD&D etc also (though AD&D's encounter tables with their '30-300 orc' results discourage large-scale wilderness exploration outside the roughly 6-10 level range).

 

[CapnZapp]

The problem is this:

Whether the party wins or flees, the nature of 4E combat and the capabilities of player characters are such that any high-level combat is destined to drag on for hours.

This neatly summarizes the whole issue:

In a Sandbox game, the solution to the grind is players smart enough to realize that even if they win the fight, it's not worth the 3 hours of table time.

True, but not a satisfying solution for me.

It seems 4E only offers quick fights when it is the PCs that win quick.

What we're discussing here is how PCs can't "lose quickly" - relatively speaking - (with all the healing available to PCs combined with the often low damage output of monsters). And how the PCs can win against even a high-level threat but only through a grind, because that high-level opponent will have so many hp and so high defenses there will be a lot of whiffing; while the foe's offensive won't be enough to really deter the PCs from stopping.

The low damage of foes encourage PCs to stay in the fight, fighting til the bitter end.

As I said, one completely viable solution is to throw more monsters as the PCs: this nicely ups the damage (which seems to be the main problem) while keeping hp's and defenses of any individual foe low. But how do you do this with, say, a Dragon? Fighting "the three amigo Dragons" is kind of not what we want out of a dragon fight...

It seems 4E's solution is always to have more monsters. Either adding to the encounter, or simply by the threat of having one more encounter. The whole resource-management game is geared towards this: the threat of more encounters, or in other words, more monsters.

What do you do if you want a party to stumble upon a solitary BBEG first they do on the day, and still run away?
(Slogging through a whiffest of a three hour drag where the PCs win out in the end (and thus learn nothing) is what the rules offer, but I will have none of it)

I really see no other solution than to add more damage to high-level foes.

Suggestion:
Perhaps a Solo (that is truly alone) gets +1d6 damage* for each level it is higher than the PCs?
*) per round (much like Striker bonus damage) - not per attack, or "Hydra" would become the favorite career of most BBEGs...
And yes, as I said in my very first post, this makes me feel like a WoW designer... because at the end of the day, what this is, is simply "discouraging players from taking on threats above their station". I'd wish the game could hide it in its internals (like 3E), but in 4E it seems unavoidable to have an external mechanism like this...

Perhaps you can add in this rule for all monsters; though of course it can quickly become deadly (if you run into a half-dozen Orcs three levels higher than you), but primarily the rule should be intended for Solos (critters whose defense vastly outmatch their offense).

Edit: see http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...55506-adding-oomph-high-level-encounters.html for more on this idea.

 

[CapnZapp]

To clarify the idea behind my last suggestion (the post directly above)...

In essence, what we're discussing is adding "striker bonus damage"-ish to the encounter, not to any individual monster (and certainly not to any individual attack form).

If there's only one monster, it gets it all. If there's twenty foes, it would be unbalancing to give the bonus damage to each of them. Just like it would be unbalancing to give it more often to a Hydra than to a Giant.

Edit: I've started a new thread discussing this specific suggestion (with cleaned-up rules language):
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...55506-adding-oomph-high-level-encounters.html
Feel free to continue discussing the general issue (and other ways to solve the problems without having to resort to maths extensions like this) here

 

[LostSoul]

And yes, as I said in my very first post, this makes me feel like a WoW designer... because at the end of the day, what this is, is simply "discouraging players from taking on threats above their station".

If they win the fight, it's not above their station.

A level 2 party vs. a young red dragon (lvl 7 solo): I think that would be a close and tense fight, decided by good tactics and luck.

A level 2 party vs. an adult red dragon (lvl 15 solo): They are going to get killed. This fight is above their station.


What do you want to happen? Do you want to have exciting and tense combats, or do you want to quickly defeat the PCs?

 

[CapnZapp]

@LostSoul: there's an awful lot of space in-between your two examples.

Okay, so they're capable of defeating a level 7 Solo. (It will probably not be "close and tense" as much as "grindy and whiffy", but YMMV.)

How about a level 8 fight? A level 9?

There's a substantial grey zone where, yes, the PCs might prevail in the end; but the purpose of the game (the combat itself) won't be fun, because of all the grind and all the whiff.

After all, if the players can still win, who's blaming them for sticking to it?

Nah, it'll be much better for the game if we find a solution where these border-line too-high-level fights aren't as grindy.

Upping the damage output of the monsters is one way. Possibly the only way, but I'm certainly not sure.

 

[LostSoul]

@LostSoul: there's an awful lot of space in-between your two examples.

Okay, so they're capable of defeating a level 7 Solo. (It will probably not be "close and tense" as much as "grindy and whiffy", but YMMV.)

How about a level 8 fight? A level 9?

There's a substantial grey zone where, yes, the PCs might prevail in the end; but the purpose of the game (the combat itself) won't be fun, because of all the grind and all the whiff.

After all, if the players can still win, who's blaming them for sticking to it?

There is a lot of space between those examples, yup. Is a level 8 or 9 fight winnable? What if the players scout it out first, figure out its weaknesses, and gain surprise? What if the level 4 solo gets the jump on the level 2 PCs?

I have some different views on whiffing and grind; probably not too relevant to the discussion, but I'll state it here so that you know where I'm coming from:

[sblock=On whiffing & grind]I think that there's a big difference between a miss in a higher-level encounter and a miss in an equal- or lower-level one. he former is a tense roll, and you get an "oh crap, I really need to hit!" feeling; the latter, it doesn't matter all that much if you crit, you're still going to win, you just might be down a healing surge or two. (Which might actually be important...)

Which is to say: I wouldn't describe a long, drawn-out fight where the outcome is not clear as a grind, nor would I describe a miss in that fight as a whiff.[/sblock]

Nah, it'll be much better for the game if we find a solution where these border-line too-high-level fights aren't as grindy.

Upping the damage output of the monsters is one way. Possibly the only way, but I'm certainly not sure.

What I'm hearing is that you want to increase the difficulty of higher-level ecounters.

Here is a suggestion: create a pool of APs that the DM can draw on for any monster in the encounter. I think additional actions might be a neat way to increase the difficulty of the encounter. Maybe 1 or two for every level difference.

 

[Jack99]

That said. . . as for the apparent 'grind', didn't someone post a solution recently, in the general forum (i.e., right here) rather than one of the 4e forums, even? Something like, halve all HPs, or set them at 75%, and up damage by a corresponding amount. Or was that only for solos? Hrm, I don't recall precisely, sorry.

Far from everyone experiences the grind. When that is said, there has been several proposals floating around. Some remove 50% of the hitpoints and add 50% damage, some do the same, just only 25% and yet others remove 25% hit points and scale the attacks to be at par with what is suggested in the DMG.

If they win the fight, it's not above their station.

A level 2 party vs. a young red dragon (lvl 7 solo): I think that would be a close and tense fight, decided by good tactics and luck.

A level 2 party vs. an adult red dragon (lvl 15 solo): They are going to get killed. This fight is above their station.


What do you want to happen? Do you want to have exciting and tense combats, or do you want to quickly defeat the PCs?

Seriously? Either my players suck or I am just a great DM, but I seriously doubt they could even come close to winning the fight against a young red dragon at level 2. I would consider them lucky if they even got to bloody it.

 

[Stalker0]

One thing I wanted to clarify about my guide, some have the impression that I think 3e's model is better at supporting high level opponents against your party. I didn't say that. I said they can be more exciting, but at the same time can cause a lot of disappointment and anger if a player is snuffed out quickly. 4e gives you more grind, but it also allows a party to encounter a high level creature more safely, with more time to run away.


That said, I think the way to handle the OP's situation is to invoke the great balancer of all things 4e....terrain. Feel free to pare up tough monsters with damaging terrain to speed up the fight.

Lets say in your sandbox, the party decides to go take out the big red dragon in its mountain lair. Wait, did I say mountain? I meant volcano, that is now erupting!

If your going to fight in the swamp, you could include heavy rain, making areas deep enough to suffocate people under. Include old relics that enhance damage, etc.

Just because the monsters are predetermined doesn't mean the terrain is, at least the first time a party goes to a new area.

 

[Ariosto]

I would go for increasing the ratio of damage to HP. Even with more frequent hits, the current state of affairs boggles my mind ... I can believe the bit about 3-hour fights!

I think a combatant should not take more than 10 average hits to fell a peer, and generally more like 6. You may have higher numbers in mind, but even with the way 4E depends on setting up combat advantage, powers, etc., I think it would not harm combat to speed it up a bit.

One consequence would be that outmatched combatants would find out quickly. Win or lose, hanging in there would use up healing surges. Tactics more cunning than taking it on the chin might come into play.