D&D 4E Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign - Heroic tier (finished)

[Glyfair]

There's a somewhat more constructive thread in House Rules where people discuss house rules to address the scaling issues without the need for (and with the presumed banning of) these feats.

One thing to remember is that a key element of this house rule for PC was that it could easily be implemented within the character builder software. This solution doesn't sound like it can be.

 

[Barastrondo]

In this case, the rogue should either follow up with an action point attack, or delay until right after the villain, then deliver his daily.

I'm sure our group isn't the only one that manipulates the initiative order to maximize our power's effects. Just one more layer of tactics to deal with...

That was my exact thought as well. Delay until after the villain, and you can line up an effect for all the rest of the gang to exploit. It's risky, of course, but that's part of the fun.

 

[Piratecat]

Huh. That had never occurred to me. It seems like poor design to have to metagame your tactics solely due to a rules quirk, but it certainly works.

I want to take a moment to talk about campaign direction and plot flow.

When I build my campaign, I usually have roughly three or more levels of simultaneous plot. One is the large, slow-moving megalithic plots that move forward even without PC interaction; these happen in the background and help drive the world forward so it doesn't feel stagnant. (A good example that my players know about is that their country supposedly rebelling from the Caprian empire, and this might have destroyed the Emperor's Peace and made the Oathstone stop working. That means more monsters begin attacking people, and a greater need for adventurers and heroes.) These play out over many levels.

The second is medium-range plots. These play out over a level or two. They provide continuity and a cohesive set of games, but aren't audacious enough to drive the whole campaign. Bad guys in these plots may be catspaws for other bad guys, but they should always be entertaining and dangerous enough to inspire me as I build games around them. The series of lizardman raids on Floodford, and who's driving that (and why!), is a good current example. Alene is a glorious bad guy for reasons I can't discuss, even if the PCs haven't met her face-to-face.

Finally, I have active adventures. These are clearly driven by the first two, but are far more focused in nature. They may not always be linked to a larger plot; depends on whether I want something that moves the story forward, or just want a fun and fast adventure as a palate cleanser. These last a session or two.

The secret for me is to layer these types of plots onto one another to create the appearance of complexity. I may have two or three large-scale plots going on, and the 3-4 mid-level adventures they inspire interact with one another to always give me options for the PCs. In truth, I just load myself down with plot hooks and let the group pursue whatever seems like the most fun at the time. That way they're always advancing at least one of the larger plots whichever path they choose.

One thing I don't do is plan everything out ahead of time. I'm not a top-down designer, and I generally don't fill in all the details until a plot comes into focus. More fun for me that way.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Huh. That had never occurred to me. It seems like poor design to have to metagame your tactics solely due to a rules quirk, but it certainly works.

We had a similar situation in our Scales of War campaign where I noted that with a different initiative, a certain feature could have been used a lot more interestingly. My DM reminded me that I could have delayed.

I first thought that was metagamey - but it is just coordinating the characters action better, which is, in the end, absolutely realistic.
[sblock=Scales of War Spoiler, 1st adventure]
There is a room with 2 Goblin snipers and 2 Hobgoblin soldiers, and a kind of trap that shoots flames when one of the room doors open. One of my characters could push the enemies around, but they could act before the fire, so I couldn't use the trap against them - unless I had delayed until after their action!
[/sblock]

 

[Barastrondo]

Huh. That had never occurred to me. It seems like poor design to have to metagame your tactics solely due to a rules quirk, but it certainly works.

It's not optimal, but I tend to think of it as kind of an "on my mark — GO!" maneuver. It's less about giving up your opportunity and more like attempting to get into synch with your teammates so that you can pull off coordinated strikes like a bunch of pros. I would sometimes see it happen in previous editions as well, as the players shifted into a coordinated knot in the initiative order, but there's absolutely more incentive to do it in 4e.

The secret for me is to layer these types of plots onto one another to create the appearance of complexity. I may have two or three large-scale plots going on, and the 3-4 mid-level adventures they inspire interact with one another to always give me options for the PCs. In truth, I just load myself down with plot hooks and let the group pursue whatever seems like the most fun at the time. That way they're always advancing at least one of the larger plots whichever path they choose.

Thanks for the look at that! That's awfully clever. I sort of practice a less sophisticated version, with only medium- and low-tier plots in play; I'm not that fortunate when it comes to games that can play out over a very long period of time, so I tend to try and plan in manageable, bite-size chunks.

Has the new design element of tiers affected your viewpoint at all? I'm curious if you ever find yourself tempted to say "Hey, this plot could make a good transition from heroic to paragon," or "This large-scale plot could spark Epic Adventures X and Y" ahead of time.

One thing I don't do is plan everything out ahead of time. I'm not a top-down designer, and I generally don't fill in all the details until a plot comes into focus. More fun for me that way.

Yeah, and I find sometimes it really helps to "find the motivation" for a plot after its peripheral effects have been running around in the setting for a while. Even if the player characters haven't even heard the name of a villain at work behind the scenes yet, how the game unfolds might make me get a better handle on him as they interact with his workings.

 

[Piratecat]

On a totally separate note, wish me luck. I'm about to go over to Sagiro's house to recieve what may be the most complex, best planned, most secretive birthday present in the history of such things. I know it is masterminded by Sagiro, has been planned for 3 years, involved multiple rehearsals (if they were rehearsals, which isn't certain), may have a videographer, and might involve all of the players in my Defenders / Grey Guard campaigns. Or not. I can't get a straight answer out of anyone, I've had tantalizing snippets of clue dangled in front of me for almost a year, and it all occurs tonight.

I either love my friends, or totally hate them. I don't know which yet! But I trust them.

I hope it's a pony.

 

[The_Warlock]

I hope it's a pony.

I hope for your sake it's not a pony. Do you know how much those things poo?

Good luck and happy birthday, nonetheless!

 

[Tamlyn]

Good luck and happy birthday, nonetheless!

Indeed! And let us know how it turns out.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I hope it's a pony.

Better yet, a magic pony!

Happy Birthday mate!

 

[Piratecat]

I have the best friends ever. What I got was an original nine-song musical written and scored by Sagiro, and performed (sung and acted) by my six players and two other friends.

Spine of the Times: A Musical Journey Into the White Kingdom.

Complete with a book of lyrics and text, a forthcoming cast CD of the songs, a video recording, an impromptu dance from Sagiro's daughter, a bottle of Rat Bastard wine, and memories I'm never going to lose. I'm speechless, but only because I can't stop grinning like a goon. I love my players.

I'll make a separate post tomorrow to talk about this. Any performance featuring (for example) the Alienist song "Tentacles" deserves its own thread.