Flanking Questions (and a few others)

[DracoSuave]

Like what, dispell magic? Isnt that a high level daily? So once per day once you reach a high enough level you can counter something that a wizard can do at will from first level? Now I dont have my books with me, but how many monsters can dispell a conjuration from first level, or even at any level?

Bit of a strawman here. We're talking about a conjuration worth destroying. Those tend to be dailies.

Now as I said in the post above yours, a conjuration that is explicitly a creature, ie figurines of wonderous power, are for all intents and purposes a summoned creautre because they use the same rules except for the fact that they dont explicity have clauses stating for instance that they are your ally. I am houseruling that those conjurations are summoned creatures instead.

But conjuration in and of themselves should not, and cannot flank, etc. as per my posts above.


PS. Creatures in and of themselves cant flank with other creatures. If they could, then you could flank with an enemy who is also a creature. As abyssaldeath said, summonings flank because they are allies.

Agreed. But the term ally -does- include a creature that you have full control over, as it is fully willing with regard to effects you place on it.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Bit of a strawman here. We're talking about a conjuration worth destroying. Those tend to be dailies.

[...]

So a storm pillar that a wizard cast in order to give a flank for a rogue isnt worth destroying? It doesnt last long itself, but for the time that it does, if it is allowed to flank with another creature, I would argue that it is definitely worth destroying. Yet you cant destroy it until you reach a certain level, and even then only once per day.

Either way, the effectiveness of the individual conjuration is beside the point. My original point still stands that conjurations are for all intents and purposes invulnerable and cannot be effected, except once per day once you reach a specific level, and the price of that is clearly the fact that conjurations dont flank, dont count as an ally, dont count as a creature, etc.

 

[DracoSuave]

So a storm pillar that a wizard cast in order to give a flank for a rogue isnt worth destroying? It doesnt last long itself, but for the time that it does, if it is allowed to flank with another creature, I would argue that it is definitely worth destroying. Yet you cant destroy it until you reach a certain level, and even then only once per day.

But it -doesn't- provide flanking. So this is, again, pointless to bring up.

Either way, the effectiveness of the individual conjuration is beside the point.

When discussing whether or not it's worth destroying, yes it IS important. Some conjurations are just like any other spell (Cloud of Daggers). Some conjurations are a bunch of mouths that will EAT you. (Hunger of Hadar). One is not worth destroying, one is worth destroying.

My original point still stands that conjurations are for all intents and purposes invulnerable and cannot be effected, except once per day once you reach a specific level, and the price of that is clearly the fact that conjurations dont flank, dont count as an ally, dont count as a creature, etc.

Non-creature conjurations don't flank, ally, etc. I agree with this point tho. Generally, you're more concerned with Zones from monsters, anyways. Zones, thankfully, are cacked by the same stuff that cacks conjurations.

But some conjurations -do- flank. For example, a stalker spirit companion after his pet (read: His shaman) uses a certain at-will. And destroying a spirit companion isn't terribly effective, he just brings it back. And if you did so through non-damaging means, it doesn't even hurt the shaman.

 

[Mahali]

Target then takes penalty to hit and radiant damage unless it attacks Paladin.

To clarify, if the Divine Challenged creature doesn't attack anyone it won't take the damage either.

They could ready an action to get the paladin when he pops up to reduce/eliminate cover.

 

[Legildur]

To clarify, if the Divine Challenged creature doesn't attack anyone it won't take the damage either.

Good point. Thanks.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

But it -doesn't- provide flanking. So this is, again, pointless to bring up.

[...]

Some were arguing that they do, and as per your replies I thought that was your position as well. Looking back obviously I was mistaken, but that is what my post(s) were in response to.

It looks like we are actually in full agreement with the rules. My only real points in this thread were to point out the issues with, as you put it, non creature conjurations, and my idea to essentially houserule the figurines of wondrous power so that they are summonings as it makes the rules a bit more explicit.

As for the spirit companion I think that it further proves my point that in the end there must always be a price, and as in the case of the companion in the specific beats general rule of the at will, the price is that if it is destroyed by damage, there is a price to pay for the caster.