It's hard to avoid arguing
- Thread starter JoeGKushner
- Start date
Treebore
First Post
Personally I am all for arguments, when they are able to refrain from personal insults. I don't care if its about an old subject, because points may be conveyed better this time around.
I don't do ignore lists either. Like others have said, just because I disagree with them this time doesn't mean I always will. Now if they were a poster who refused to improve their posting behavior, and continue to use personal insults and such, then I would ban them. I haven't noticed anyone who is that bad yet. Well, I have, but they tend to go away and never come back without being ignored.
Anyways, I like arguments, its the only way to see what the viewpoints of others are, and to consider those view points. If everyone on ENWorld starts agreeing with each other and starts singing songs together I wouldn't come here any longer.
So argue away, Joe! Just try and keep it from getting personal. Don't use specific names, don't use insulting words. Stick to your opinion, the facts you know, and state them nicely. Then when you have said your piece, don't post anymore to that thread unless someone specifically asks for a follow up in some manner.
I used to get all bent out of shape, but then I made it to Gen Con 06, and found out a lot of the people who irritated me on these boards were actually pretty darn nice people in person. So don't take anything on these boards as personal, it isn't even close to being the same as having a face to face discussion.
Take Piratecat for instance, he really isn't the obnoxious donkey's behind he seems to be on these boards, he's really a very calm, cool, and relaxed guy. I believe "personable" is the word I am looking for.
My impression of you was totally wrong too, Joe. That or I ran into a different guy with your name, not to mention the pleasant eBay business we have done.
So I recommend treating message boards as a world of their own that doesn't translate very well into the real world.
One thing about boards, we tend to fixate on just a few things we disagree about, and that is all we talk about, but when I met certain people at GenCon 06 I found out despite what we disagreed on, we agreed on a heck of a lot more.
So don't take it to heart, because it isn't personal on message boards.
I don't do ignore lists either. Like others have said, just because I disagree with them this time doesn't mean I always will. Now if they were a poster who refused to improve their posting behavior, and continue to use personal insults and such, then I would ban them. I haven't noticed anyone who is that bad yet. Well, I have, but they tend to go away and never come back without being ignored.
Anyways, I like arguments, its the only way to see what the viewpoints of others are, and to consider those view points. If everyone on ENWorld starts agreeing with each other and starts singing songs together I wouldn't come here any longer.
So argue away, Joe! Just try and keep it from getting personal. Don't use specific names, don't use insulting words. Stick to your opinion, the facts you know, and state them nicely. Then when you have said your piece, don't post anymore to that thread unless someone specifically asks for a follow up in some manner.
I used to get all bent out of shape, but then I made it to Gen Con 06, and found out a lot of the people who irritated me on these boards were actually pretty darn nice people in person. So don't take anything on these boards as personal, it isn't even close to being the same as having a face to face discussion.
Take Piratecat for instance, he really isn't the obnoxious donkey's behind he seems to be on these boards, he's really a very calm, cool, and relaxed guy. I believe "personable" is the word I am looking for.
My impression of you was totally wrong too, Joe. That or I ran into a different guy with your name, not to mention the pleasant eBay business we have done.
So I recommend treating message boards as a world of their own that doesn't translate very well into the real world.
One thing about boards, we tend to fixate on just a few things we disagree about, and that is all we talk about, but when I met certain people at GenCon 06 I found out despite what we disagreed on, we agreed on a heck of a lot more.
So don't take it to heart, because it isn't personal on message boards.
Tequila Sunrise
Adventurer
I don't like using ignore lists, but sometimes it's a necessity. I've only ever ignored one poster, and not on this forum, because every one of his posts was a subtle insult one way or another. Doesn't matter that I agreed with him once or twice, douches just need to be ignored.
Discussion is good. Debate can be good. These are exchange of ideas between people with different opinions.
Arguing is not good, as it does not include actual intellectual exchange - when things get to argument, the sides are only listening to each other in order to formulate counter-arguments, if they even listen that much.
When people argue, the point ceases to be so much to put forth your opinion and lean about the other guy's point of view, and becomes more about proving the other guy wrong, or "winning".
So, argument is still bad.
roguerouge
First Post
It's the argument, not the people, that matters. Make your case, as persuasively as you can. And, sometimes, that entails a dignified silence.
Remathilis
Legend
I can live with spirited debate, but don't sabotage the argument with the following:
* Don't burst into a discussion about a specific topic/world/edition and denounce a specific element of that topic/world/edition (including, but not limited to: races, classes, monsters, spells, game elements, or world design) by declaring it as "not D&D", lamenting its inclusion, and demanding its removal.
* Similarly, don't use unfunny nicknames to refer to said elements.
* Don't answer the question "How do I fix ___ in edition X" by saying "Play edition Y instead!"
* Don't use the following letters: GNS. They godwinize a thread by devoting the next 5-6 pages to Forgespeak and trying to define what those letters actually mean.
* Don't assume your playstyle is inherently better because you've played longer, met Gary Gygax, or created some elaborate dissertation about how your right and we're wrong.
* World of Warcraft. Its been done. Find some new material.
I'm sure if we can have conversations where people think about what they post and don't assume they're beliefs are superior, we might have some conversations that are informative and interesting, rather than peeing contests.
* Don't burst into a discussion about a specific topic/world/edition and denounce a specific element of that topic/world/edition (including, but not limited to: races, classes, monsters, spells, game elements, or world design) by declaring it as "not D&D", lamenting its inclusion, and demanding its removal.
* Similarly, don't use unfunny nicknames to refer to said elements.
* Don't answer the question "How do I fix ___ in edition X" by saying "Play edition Y instead!"
* Don't use the following letters: GNS. They godwinize a thread by devoting the next 5-6 pages to Forgespeak and trying to define what those letters actually mean.
* Don't assume your playstyle is inherently better because you've played longer, met Gary Gygax, or created some elaborate dissertation about how your right and we're wrong.
* World of Warcraft. Its been done. Find some new material.
I'm sure if we can have conversations where people think about what they post and don't assume they're beliefs are superior, we might have some conversations that are informative and interesting, rather than peeing contests.
JoeGKushner
Adventurer
I'd like to second this.
Message boards are a bad form of communication in many ways. They don't pass through tone, expression, or numerous other things and they don't always allow real discussion to take place because it's still just text messaging even when it's back and forth text messaging.
There are many people who you meet and are like, "You're X? No way! Let's have a beer!"
I just state my opinion and then leave it at that.
If a thread turns in to several posts between the same two people back and forth, I lose interest.
if someone responds to something I've said (without it being an actual question, but instead just as a counterargument) I don't even feel the need to reply and debate -- why? i've already said my point. he/she has said his/hers. And other people will have their own opinion. that's all there really is to it. So there isn't even the urge to get it to the point where I would consider it an argument.
I'm not here to change anyone's mind. Just read some opinions, catch some random gaming news, tap in to some creative ideas I had not yet considered for my own games, and then share my own thoughts on topics that i feel like adding to...
If a thread turns in to several posts between the same two people back and forth, I lose interest.
if someone responds to something I've said (without it being an actual question, but instead just as a counterargument) I don't even feel the need to reply and debate -- why? i've already said my point. he/she has said his/hers. And other people will have their own opinion. that's all there really is to it. So there isn't even the urge to get it to the point where I would consider it an argument.
I'm not here to change anyone's mind. Just read some opinions, catch some random gaming news, tap in to some creative ideas I had not yet considered for my own games, and then share my own thoughts on topics that i feel like adding to...
I very rarely bother posting for just this reason. In Aristotle's words:
If I had to put a point on it, I guess I'd say that most of what goes on here isn't at all argument in the rhetorical sense. It's more like rationalization: instead of drawing conclusions based on evidence, people select their evidence to suit the conclusions they already have. And of course, if you show their conclusions for what they are, they'll either try to relativize the whole discussion or scrap it on grounds of insufficient data. For a while last year I collected edition war posts for a project I was doing on argumentation theory using The New Rhetoric, but it got old really fast.
I have 45 people on mine
. Not uncoincidentally, there are some threads that consist almost entirely of these people talking to one another, so if I open one of those I may see only 2 out of 30 posts, which is quite amusing.
Remathilis
Legend
I have 45 people on mine
Which makes me wonder; can you see on whose ignore lists you're on? So you can find out if your talking to a brick-wall or not?
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