Unicorn's Touch: Free Hit Points Every 5 Minutes?

[Regicide]

Two words on Healing Surges: Bruce Willis

Okay...that actually needs three more words: Die Hard series.

John McClain gets the crap kicked out of him over and over...he's down (nearly for the count) about a dozen times in a single night. He walks across broken glass, dodges bullets, jumps down elevator shafts, and has strong words (fist to face style) with a bunch of thugs. Some battles go worse than others and during those it seems like he's about to just give up the ghost. But does he?

No. John McClain is a hero and heroes have reserves that run deeper than that. Most of what he was facing was exhaustion and bruises. So he sucked it up and pushed through and caught his breath and went after the next set of bad guys to save the day.

That is what spending a healing surge with second wind and / or between encounters looks like.

Thats a good example but really has nothing to do with healing surges. Healing after combat is modeled in a lot of games, Conan for instance lets you do short term healing, but there are no healing surges in the system, nor are there any ways to "spend" your daily healing potential to do other things with, such as heal an ally, use a power or charge a magic item.

So what you've described is healing or resting, but not healing surges.

Now, eventually (contrived by the plot to happen when the movie is over and the ambulance can get to him) John runs out of surges and can't get up on his own any more. He is hobbling along, barely able to stand.

That is what being out of healing surges looks like.

So if my character spends his allotment of healing surges powering magic items he's going to suddenly look like a bloody wreck? Don't think so.

 

[James McMurray]

Yet again, trying to categorize Healing Surge and Hit Points as a single thing will only lead to headaches and consternation. They are narrative tools which mean exactly what you need them to mean in the given circumstances.

McClain looks bloody and bruised. Mr. Powers Items may only look pale and weak. Or may look completely normal depending on the group's preference.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I really don't like them. They make no sense. How do you, for instance, "spend" a healing surge on something, like the healing sash? Theres no parallel for this in any fantasy movie I've ever seen, or in reality.

This is, unfortunately, an obvious point. This is part of the mechanics of the system. The mechanics are not there to mimic everything in the fantasy world, they are there to enable an enjoyable game. Now if you cannot have fun without a perfectly modelled game, you're going to have to look elsewhere than 4E.

Saying it's "luck" doesn't work either. Characters know exactly how much they have.

This is doubtful., especially as healing surges do not really correspond to anything in the world of the characters. Players know how much they have. Players need this information because having no control over this sort of thing in a game would really suck.

What does someone with no healing surges left look like compared to someone with full? I dunno. 4E didn't even try to describe it, like they didn't try to describe what it looks like to use healing surge. Because, well, they can't really.

This is something that must vary from circumstance to circumstance. People need certain freedoms in their storytelling with the game.

It's a really ugly shortcut they took to try to force characters to rest frequently.

Compared to the way people used to play D&D because of the rules, the healing surges greatly reduce the amount of rests characters take. That they are limited in some way is an understandable constraint on the game because, simply, we expect that even the toughest heroes need rest at some time.

 

[Intense_Interest]

double-post quote-not-edit

 

[Intense_Interest]

Characters know exactly how much they have.

Players. The PLAYERS know exactly how much they have. The Characters only know exactly as much about the game-world factoids as your table agrees upon. Some games like Spreadsheets, some don't, and you don't have to force your Spreadsheets ontop of my Storytelling.

 

[tiornys]

I see a lot of people saying that this power isn't a problem because the amount of healing it provides is small enough that it would take a long time to heal a party. That argument is flawed, because a number of items can add to the healing amount, and raise it to a point where it's quite efficient.

Gloves of the Healer (Hand): add +1d6 HP to healing (+2d6 at epic)
Healer's Brooch (Neck): add Enhancement bonus to healing
Restful Healing (Feat): maximize healing after a short rest
Mace of Healing (Weapon): add Enhancement bonus as an item bonus to healing.

So it's 5+Con+6+2xEnhancement in Paragon, so with a Con of 20ish and +4 items, that's 24HP per use, which is close to the healing surge value of your average mid-paragon character. Even in mid-heroic, with just the Brooch and Mace you can get the power healing about 13-14 HP per use, which, again, is about healing surge value. In high Epic you get to add a Healer's Shield to the mix (on a Wis or Cha primary character), and you can get the healing up to 48+HP per use, which is well above the average healing surge of non-Defenders.

t~

 

[Obryn]

Gloves of the Healer (Hand): add +1d6 HP to healing (+2d6 at epic)
Healer's Brooch (Neck): add Enhancement bonus to healing
Restful Healing (Feat): maximize healing after a short rest
Mace of Healing (Weapon): add Enhancement bonus as an item bonus to healing.

That's a pretty substantial investment for a Swordmage, I think. I'm also not sure all of these would stack.

Regardless, I'm still unworried. That's a heck of a lot of work to go to just to maximize out-of-combat healing.

-O

 

[tiornys]

That's a pretty substantial investment for a Swordmage, I think. I'm also not sure all of these would stack.

Regardless, I'm still unworried. That's a heck of a lot of work to go to just to maximize out-of-combat healing.

-O

They all stack. And it's not an investment the Swordmage makes; it's an investment the party makes for the party Leader, and then the Leader gives the items to the Swordmage during rests.

t~

 

[Obryn]

They all stack. And it's not an investment the Swordmage makes; it's an investment the party makes for the party Leader, and then the Leader gives the items to the Swordmage during rests.

t~

OK. So then, the net result is ... that people go longer without extended rests, maybe? This won't help in-combat healing, where healing surges are still king; It will only help when the party has quite a bit of time between battles to lick their wounds.

Like I said, I'm unconvinced that this is a real problem outside of theory-space. I am trying to figure out how this would impair my group's enjoyment of the game, and coming up rather blank.

-O

 

[DreamChaser]

So what you've described is healing or resting, but not healing surges.

So if my character spends his allotment of healing surges powering magic items he's going to suddenly look like a bloody wreck? Don't think so.

First, healing surges are a system that creates a mechanic for the restoration of health, energy, vitality, and capacity to battle on to the character. They are not a "thing" any more than a strength bonus, a half level modifier, or an action point is a "thing." So first off, any attempt to say that an explanation fails to describe the process but not the "thing" is inherently fallacious. One may as well say that there is no reason that chance comes into an experienced character's attack and ask for an "explanation" to describe the presence of the d20 in the game.

The character is not aware of the d20. The character is not aware of action points. The character is not aware of healing surges. The character might be aware of his ability to rally resources represented to the player with these ideas but at no point could I imagine a character, in game, saying "I spend and Action Point to make another attack...my d20 came up 19...woo hoo I hit!"

Second, I have ready many many books where the price of some magic is the user's vitality so while the magical item may not be bloody, he well look more tired the he otherwise would have and he would be aware on some level that he is less able to face physical and mental demands until he has a chance to restore himself.

This does not strike me as complicated. No verbal gymnastics. No hand waving. Just a simple, agreed upon (within my group) explanation that I think works. YMMV. Your group can decide that each healing surge reflects a fairy trapped in a bottle, a bottle of red potion, the will of the gods forcing their servants back to work, the power of nanites in their system healing them, a stupid system that needs to be thrown out (which would probably lead to another game system), or the nasty side effect of having been raised by gremlins. It doesn't matter. What matters is that healing surges are not an in game "thing" (for a reason) and we can describe the causes and effects of the system as we choose.

With regards to the power and the items that power it, this is a circular argument that goes on in each edition:

When I take (apparently balanced) power/item/spell/feat/skill X and pair it with new/existing/modified power/items/spell/feat/skill Y, Z, A, B, and/or C, it can do [insert god destroying, balance wrecking, time unraveling consequence].

This is not a problem with the item it is something inherent in complex systems: the more elements are added to a complex system, the faster the number of potential interactions grows. The strictures of 4e slow but do not stop this trend. Eventually, it becomes the job of the DM and / or players to say "Yes that could happen. It could work that way. But do we want it to work that way in our game?" There is no way for the designers (no matter how good, bad, or geeky they are) to account for every possible interaction between a new power and 3-5 items.

I'm not worried about the power on its own and I'm not going to stress about the combinations because I (as the DM) will cross that bridge **should** I come it it.

DC