Sexism in D&D and on ENWorld (now with SOLUTIONS!)

[Dannyalcatraz]

There can't be any doubt about the gender of the wanton wench, aged madam and sly procuress.

<snip good points>
Which seems to indicate they are all women.

"Pimp" and "streetwalker" are both gender-neutral, according to some definitions.

Basically, though, the chart reflects Gary's perspective on the sexes of those who prostitute themselves, not the historical reality.

And if you want to see institutional sexism in action.... look at American graduate school.

American women are significantly more likely than men to enter graduate school but FAR less likely to finish it. And a disturbingly large percentage of those who do finish end up ditching that career entirely for something else. The sciences in particular are bad that way, though men also drop out of the sciences after attaining advanced degrees at a shocking rate. Just not as high as the rate at which women drop out. So higher level science education, teaching, and research are actually badly broken for both sexes, just broken WAY worse for women.

and

Speaking as someone in American graduate school, who also happens to teach undergraduates, let me just say - OMFG, yes!

Now that confuses me...I'm the grandson of 2 graduate profs, I've been through a few graduate programs (and graduated from 2), I can't say I've seen institutional sexism there in any greater force than elsewhere in our society.

What you seem to be describing isn't so much the school, but in the field the school is supposedly preparing you for.

 

[Clavis]

One of the hardest lessons of my life has been learning that some problems cannot be solved, only endured.

The lack of female D&D players seems to be one of those problems.

In my experience, most woman don't really care about the fantasy artwork, the inherent violence of the game, or any other genre convention of fantasy. After all, if inherent misogynism and sexism actually kept woman away, the 80s glam-metal scene wouldn't have existed. What seems to turn off women from D&D is the idea of being associated with male gamers. Many woman have an intensely negative stereotype about D&D players, and a fear that their social reputation will be ruined if they are known to have contact with gamers. Bereft of a female presence at their game tables, most D&D players simply re-enforce sexist stereotypes in their games. The vicious cycle continues, and I don't think all the marketing in the world or revising of the rules is ever going to change it.

If the media was filled with images of D&D players as desirable mates, the kind that would make all of a woman's friends envious, the books could be filled with pure filth and women would still be clamoring to join D&D games. But it's never going to happen.

For all the work that has gone into making D&D less sexist since 2nd Edition, I've noticed fewer female gamers interested in D&D, not more. As long as the game is called Dungeons and Dragons, I don't believe that it will ever be able to successfully marketed to a significantly larger female audience. The brand is at this point too closely associated with a type of gamer that most woman simply do not want to socialize with, and I see no viable mechanism through which that perception can be changed.

It's a shame, because I find playing in all-male groups to be far less fun and interesting than playing in mixed groups. I've accepted, however, that as long as I want to play D&D female gamers will be the exception, not the rule.

 

[Korgoth]

In our gaming group, everyone must come attired in an androgynous jumpsuit and address fellow players with the gender-neutral term "comrade". Characters may not use swords, spears or other oppressive phallocentric weapons. When making an attack, the sexist paleo-linguistic artifact-phrase "I thrust..." must be replaced with "I unfairly subjugate...".

All sexist pictures in our books have had beefcake pictures pasted over them. From a reactionaly-bourgeoise perspective that may sound like a form of "sexism" to you, but remember that the dynamics of superexploitative cultural products require a dyad of "oppressor-oppressed". Therefore it is impossible for beefcake art to actually be sexist. Rather, its existence reverses and overthrows the tyranny of exploitative "cheesecake" art. Fortunately no one at the table enjoys looking at the beefcake pictures, so it helps us keep our minds on the advancement of the revolution through proper gaming.

Dialectical materialism has allowed us to scientifically prove the superiority of our method. History is on our side, Larry Elmore... we will bury you!

 

[Cadfan]

It is sexist, but in a good way. Any product must have a target market, that's just good business. But to identify such a market, whether it's geeks or sports fans or teenagers or men or women, is necessarily exclusionary.

Yeah... I find myself reaching for new or different terminology. I wish there was an easy way to note which sort of sexism I refer to: the "sexism" of marketing a game to a target gender demographic, the "sexism" of explicitly attempting to exclude a gender, the "sexism" of merely failing to take efforts to include a gender, the "sexism" of excluding a gender or failing to include it in a context where it seems culturally reasonable to do so, the "sexism" of excluding a gender or failing to include it where it does not seem culturally reasonable to do so...

I could probably go on.

I just don't like trying to work my way around a set of terminology that uses the same word, "sexist," to describe something like My Little Pony and something like a golf course that refuses to sell tickets to women.

 

[Mallus]

One of the hardest lessons of my life has been learning that some problems cannot be solved, only endured.

And misdiagnosed!

In my experience, most woman don't really care about the fantasy artwork, the inherent violence of the game, or any other genre convention of fantasy.

Exactly! Most women in my experience don't care for that sort of thing. Some do, though.

After all, if inherent misogynism and sexism actually kept woman away, the 80s glam-metal scene wouldn't have existed.

Not all misogyny and sexism are created equal.

What seems to turn off women from D&D is the idea of being associated with male gamers.

If this were true, me and a lot of my friends wouldn't be married/involved. Though, to be fair, we are a handsome lot, given to charm...

 

[S'mon]

Your query has been addressed in the countless existing threads discussing the relative merits of 4th edition, and is really independent of any gender-bias that may exist in it.

If you think 4e is that way, and it bothers you, then start playing it another way is the only advice I can offer.

My query wasn't about 4e, I'm sorry if including my observation re 2e sexism vs 4e sexism was misleading.

My query concerned the aim of the anti-sexism drive; is it to make a game appealing to most women (or at least as high a proportion of women as men - most men don't like D&D either, after all) - arguably Blue Rose attempted that. Or is it to make a game which seeks to make guy stuff (kill-loot-power up) not exclusionary to the relatively few women who like that kind of thing? That seems to be the 4e route, IMO.

 

[Bumbles]

Yeah... I find myself reaching for new or different terminology.

Might I suggest, Gender-oriented, or gender-favored instead?

 

[billd91]

Isn't a game about killing things, taking their stuff, and getting more powerful (better at killing things) a game that caters to male power fantasies, and thus inherently sexist? Some women enjoy those male power fantasies of killing and looting themselves, but most don't, and thus are inherently excluded.

I believe there's a problem with the query. D&D isn't and never has been just about killing things and taking their stuff. It has been an element and some styles of play do focus on it, true. But I belive that statement, sometimes used flippantly and sometimes not, has been tossed around far too often to marginalize different views of the game and play styles that profess to focus on something other than the combat aspects of the game.

 

[Lwaxy]

Is it the girly part or the witchy part?

If your daughter wanted to be femme, would you actively try to thwart her desire to express herself? Or if she was merely curious about what being femme was like, and wanted to try it out in her imagination through this game?

If it's because the girly and the witchy parts are combined, well, then what do you want for representation of witches: back to green hags only?

I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you're reacting this way, because you've not presented any evidence for your position beyond the fact that it's girly.

I think I answered this in the other thread already. It is not "femme" it is stereotype. The exact kind of stereotype harming our kids. It is the media painting girls as liking those colours (no pun intended) but this is not so true. A while ago I talked with a niece about all the bonbon coloured toys she had, and wow, she didn't like the colours. It was just that this type of toys DID NOT COME in a non-bonbon colour. Because it was doll stuff. If it had been up to her, she would have prefered blue and green colours over pink, purple and yellow. Same way my son never found soccer shoes in pink. It is a girl colour, made so only by the media (originally blue was girly and pink way boyish) so of course no such shoes were on sale. Plus, he quickly became afraid he'd be seen as girly for liking those types of colours. He was about 6 when he was attacked by a much older boy calling him gay for wearing a neon yellow sweater. Such stereotypes are not healthy. They are, however, good for the market, especially with the right advertising. There is nothing "femme" about that.

And if I had a daughter, she likely would have inherited my obesity and would be overweight in her teenage years. I very much doubt that some ideal weight characters would hold much appeal.

And yes, I do not like girly stuff combined with witch stuff. It gives all the wrong impressions, as I already explained in the other thread. I don't know where you pull up the green hag from. What about a more trutful representation of girls to begin with? All of the characters on the witch girl website have neon coloured backgrounds, save the necro girl, and that one, of course, is purple (this actually makes sense going by gothic style girls) and the only one not looking as if she was about to go to a fashion show is Amy. And even Monica looks like she's just spent hours on her make up - highly unlikely for a computer geek witch. None of those characters feels real. Now of course the game isn't about realism, but teenagers identify themselves more with their PCs in my experience, and young girls also seem to build female PCs more on what they would like to be. It is great for perfect looking girls to play this, the average akne-plagued teenager without perfect weight and hair would probably feel depressed in the long run. Yes, I've seen this happen in murder mystery RPGs, and I am rather sure it will happen with this one especially.

Now maybe you plan to encourage players to create less ideal PCs, but it didn't seem so from the website.

Now you keep going on about "not presenting evidence." You should probably have read my posts better then. Do I need to post EVIDENCE in front of it all? Not that it would help much because you'd likely ignore it as not important.

I'm sure that more girls will have fun with this than get depressed over it, mainly because I cannot see an obese, self conscious girl try this out, or the teenager with the think hair that never looks right (or maybe that is a reason to be depressed as well). I still think the concept has not been thought through to the end. but then, it is based on a book and didn't have that much space to adapt, I guess.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think this thread is well into 'political' territory, but since the mods don't seem to mind, I have a query:

Isn't a game about killing things, taking their stuff, and getting more powerful (better at killing things) a game that caters to male power fantasies, and thus inherently sexist? Some women enjoy those male power fantasies of killing and looting themselves, but most don't, and thus are inherently excluded.

But is it true that women don#t enjoy these power fantasies, too? Is making a general assumption on this not potentially sexist?

Maybe it would be enough to state it clearly that women can be part of these power fantasies, too? That they are not just there for the sex appeal, but they are depicted as capable warriors and wizards, as cunning leaders or gifted sages? And from the Villain perspective, that they could also be brutal tyrants, murderous assassins and ancient liches?