Sexism in D&D and on ENWorld (now with SOLUTIONS!)

[roguerouge]

In addition to that, I would like to state this: If you are male, then it is not possible for you to make a valid judgement on whether or not there is or is not a problem with sexism in gaming. You cannot experience the same sort of discrimination as women, as you are not one.

Baloney. As someone who's been disabled and teaches disability studies, that's baloney. You may not know exactly what it feels like to be disenfranchised in that way, but I'd certainly never state that you can't know anything about disenfranchisement, ever. It takes some education, some imagination, and some empathy, but yes, you can have a valid opinion on something that you don't have direct experience with.

In fact, I bet you have loads of valid opinions on topics with which you don't have direct experience. You do, after all, play a game of imagining things that never were.

Basically, taken to its logical extreme, your stance is that people can't extrapolate from their own experience to try to understand anyone else's experience. Abstract reasoning, imagination, metaphors, similes, theory... all subservient before the great god of Experience.

In addition, I can hardly think of a less productive viewpoint to have when it comes to promoting progressive values. Basically, this statement says, "Shut up" to anyone you might try to work with in a coalition and to anyone you might try to persuade of your viewpoint. I can hardly imagine trying to teach my students disability with that attitude. I can easily imagine what the impact of doing so would be... even though I've never directly experienced teaching in that manner.

Essentially, you advocate for political solipsism: nobody's viewpoint but mine and those exactly like mine matter. If that's true, why are you in this thread, talking to people who don't have this experience of sexism? Whatever they might learn from you would be invalid, because they never directly experienced it.

 

[roguerouge]

I think the point here is that if a boys-only club is sexist, then a girls-only one ought to be sexist too.

If marketing something to a male audience using imagery that attracts males is sexist, marketing something... well, fill in the rest.

If that's the opinion, then drawing that equivalency is a fairly noble yet unrealistic way to understand real world power disparities and how to rectify them.

 

[dbm]

This sort of thing fascinates me, and I'll post at length when I have more time. I just wanted to riposte this point:

In addition to that, I would like to state this:

If you are male, then it is not possible for you to make a valid judgement on whether or not there is or is not a problem with sexism in gaming. You cannot experience the same sort of discrimination as women, as you are not one.

If the players of a game whose fundamental point is to put yourself in someone else's shoes can't empathise with the other sex then go help us all!

Cheers,
Dan

 

[Proserpine]

I think the point here is that if a boys-only club is sexist, then a girls-only one ought to be sexist too.

If marketing something to a male audience using imagery that attracts males is sexist, marketing something... well, fill in the rest.

In my opinion, it's not really the same thing. As Shilsen pointed out earlier, males are treated as the default position in gaming. Even if D&D is mechanically egalitarian, it's gender skewed in other areas. And plenty of other RPGs are definitely catering more (or exclusively) to guys, creating implicit sexism left and right.

My point is, these things aren't interchangeable, since one gender has historically been subordinated to the other in many areas, including gaming. Think of it this way (and I'm not trying to play oppression olympics, just trying to intellectualize the issue): you (hopefully) wouldn't call Black History Month racist, or Women's History Month sexist. Because... well, every other month is about the pursuits of white men. This is anecdotal, but: I've taken "progressive" humanities courses that decided to move away from the usual literature covered in humanities courses. Between nearly 17 texts, we read one female. I've also taken contemporary literature classes, and in one where I read 12 plays, we covered two females. And academia is not a boys' club anymore. Gender wise (and race wise, though we're not arguing that here) the world is quite unbalanced, and the male is seen in as the defaul even in areas (like academia) which are no longer boys' clubs.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Let's see now. . .

Oh, and it gets better.

Are you male?

If so, you have just shot yourself in the foot with the other one in your mouth.

Nice shootin'.

How so?

Yes, I am male. The name was a clue.

I appreciate that I cannot experience the sexism and discrimination in gaming, as a man, as a woman can. However, I can still see that there is discrimination and sexism, and in my own way I can try and work against that.

 

[Aus_Snow]

How so?

Yes, I am male. The name was a clue.

I appreciate that I cannot experience the sexism and discrimination in gaming, as a man, as a woman can. However, I can still see that there is discrimination and sexism, and in my own way I can try and work against that.

If you insist. . .

'If you cannot see or understand that there is a problem with sexism in RPG's, in terms of the marketing, the assumptions, the behaviour of gamers (both in games and at conventions), then you are part of the problem.'​

So, here you are clearly stating that there is a problem with sexism in RPGs. Right? Right. Next one along then. . .

'If you are male, then it is not possible for you to make a valid judgement on whether or not there is or is not a problem with sexism in gaming. You cannot experience the same sort of discrimination as women, as you are not one.'​

And here you are clearly stating that, if one is male, one cannot 'make a valid judgement on whether or not there is [. . .] a problem with sexism in gaming.'

And, uh, you are male. See it now?

 

[Doug McCrae]

I do also find it slightly hilarious that in a hobby which is dominated by men, has products that are nearly entirely aimed at, written by and marketed to men, finally gets around to writing a game aimed at and marketed to women, that the response isn't "Oh, about time" but "This is sexist! It excludes men! I am excluded! I feel oppressed!"

It is sexist, but in a good way. Any product must have a target market, that's just good business. But to identify such a market, whether it's geeks or sports fans or teenagers or men or women, is necessarily exclusionary.

There's really no reason why the response to Witch Girls from men in their 30s (the most common demographic on ENWorld) should be positive. Witch Girls isn't for men in their 30s, it's marketed towards younger females.

That Witch Girls exists is something I find really interesting. The creators are trying something new (which should always be applauded imo), going for more of a Harry Potter/manga market than Blue Rose which derived from modern romantic fantasy. Testing a roleplaying game with a girl scout group is kind of mind-blowing and potentially revolutionary.

But Witch Girls is not for me. It's not aimed at me. It doesn't care about me, and rightly so. So there's no reason why I or others in my demographic should care about it.

 

[1Mac]

This is a way more interesting, level-headed, and helpful thread than I imagined it would be. Kudos ENWorld! I have a lot of reactions, but I'll try to focus on things that have been less discussed.

1.) It's been touched on indirectly, but I thought I would clarify: When you ask "Is D&D sexist?", you are really asking several things. To focus on a few of them...

a.) Are the mechanics sexist? (I think everyone agrees that despite some aberrant counterexamples, this is not true)

b.) Are the setting assumptions sexist?

c.) Is hobby gaming culture at large sexist?

There are further ways to refine these points.

2.) Regarding point b, that depends on a few things. For starters, it is important to recognize that many game settings, published and homebrewed, purposefully invoke real-world myth and legend, either directly or via modern fantasy. And as it happens, myth and legend, from Homer to King Arthur to Miyamoto Musashi, is often about manly men hacking at foes and rescuing damsels.

So why rely on such a milieu, if it reinforces sexual stereotypes (both male and female)? Because they are classics, and have given enjoyment for millennia. I can understand tweaking such tropes to accommodate powerful female characters. But there comes a point where the imperative to overhaul time-tested legend because it affronts our modern sensitivities to gender inequality becomes silly.

3.) Is there anything wrong with a boy's club or a girl's club in gaming? I personally don't think there is. People often like being around people exclusively of their own sex from time to time, and I don't think this is immature or prejudicial, nor should it be discouraged.

I realize, though, that this is a different issue than whether an entire hobby should be the domain of one sex or another.

4.) A personal anecdote, one that I hope my wife won't find too embarrassing, since it's about her (though she was telling it in public to strangers the other day, so I think I'm fine).

Years ago, before we were married and I was visiting her school, we took a trip into town to see Kill Bill. My now-wife doesn't like film violence, but I and some of her friends were enthusiastic, so away we went.

Afterwards she was visibly upset, not angry, but literally speechless with shock. This was upsetting to me. I felt like I had pushed her into doing something that she not only didn't want to do, but was actually harmful to her. We had an awkward, silent busride back to campus, where I finally brought up my concern. She was a bit surprised, and told me that I didn't need to take responsibility, that it was her decision to go to the show, and that she could bear the consequences.

This was an important teaching moment for me, and I was reminded of it recently when talking about starting a gaming group. I have tentatively persuaded her to join, but at one point I was suggesting that she encourage one of her girl friends to join as well, being aware of the "boy's club" that gaming can be. In so many words, she said "I can take what you guys dish out."

This doesn't abrogate the need to discuss how to make gaming more palatable to women, but I don't think what limited sexist relics still exist in D&D are insurmountable roadblocks. Most women are of sterner stuff than that.

 

[CardinalXimenes]

I think it's worth drawing a distinction between gaming sexism as an instrumental problem and gaming sexism as a moral failing, because the answers are going to be different for each. It's perfectly possible to make a devil's bargain with your content, pushing the material that is most likely to get you the most players regardless of what that material is. To argue that sexist content turns off the female demographic is to retreat to a utilitarian argument that is vulnerable to market facts. I don't think a lot of people making this argument would be satisfied if the market proved that splatbooks full of naked barbarian chicks boosted player numbers by 100%.

I think an argument many would prefer to make is that participating in vicarious sexism is something that more people should be uncomfortable about roleplaying. In that sense, debating whether a given RPG is turning off female gamers is a different conversation entirely. The success or failure of sexist content to expand the hobby is in no way going to affect their satisfaction with a game that seems sexist. It's also a much more difficult argument to make, because you have to not only convince your interlocutors of the existence of sexist content, but also that they should feel bad about participating vicariously in it.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

As an illustration from real life: In the Swedish schooling system today, girls do better than boys. Not just a little better, but a lot. Most of our university students are now women.

Those stats hold true in the States, too (insofar as you can call what we have an educational system at this point). Boys are increasingly likely to go right into the workforce after high school, for some reason. Strange sort of reversal there. And girls get better grades overall almost straight through the system (with the usual noise around math and science depending on the school system and teachers).

And if you want to see institutional sexism in action.... look at American graduate school.

American women are significantly more likely than men to enter graduate school but FAR less likely to finish it. And a disturbingly large percentage of those who do finish end up ditching that career entirely for something else. The sciences in particular are bad that way, though men also drop out of the sciences after attaining advanced degrees at a shocking rate. Just not as high as the rate at which women drop out. So higher level science education, teaching, and research are actually badly broken for both sexes, just broken WAY worse for women.

So even in the most liberal parts of our culture, who are allegedly the watchdogs for this stuff.... sexism is practically grafted into the institutions.

<<snip>>
But, there is still the impression that it's sort of a "Boy's Club"

Well.... yeah. Last three times my wife came to any sort of gaming/comic store with me she was, in order:
1) Leered at by a pair of guys who were literally giggling in the corner after we came in
2) An extremely awkward and very creepy attempt was made to hit on her
3) Her anatomy was scrutinized to the point where I literally had to put my hand in front of the guy's face to get his attention to tell him I no longer intended to buy the books in my hand

They sound like bad stereotypes, but these events all took place within the last 3 years. A sizable and very visible minority of male gamers (and geeks of all stripes) continue to treat women as if they were some other species entirely. Women are consistently either objectified to an extreme or put on a ridiculous pedestal. I've even seen some guys do both at the same time with the same woman, which is some ju jitsu conceptualization.

In short.... I'm not convinced the games themselves contain sexist elements worth noting at this point. The culture, however, is a disaster area much of the time. The gaming culture and the culture in general (leastwise here in the States)