Sexism in D&D and on ENWorld (now with SOLUTIONS!)

[Proserpine]

I think Shilsen's call for more equal numbers of male and female NPCs and non-sexist art is quite reasonable because it would be easy to change and I doubt any male customers would be lost as a result. As an example, I'm a big fan of the Eberron setting and until Shilsen mentioned it I hadn't even noticed it had more balanced gender representation. That shows nothing is being lost, at least for me.

I talked with Shilsen a lot about that. He used BSG as an example of gender equality in media, which essentially plays a similar trick on a largely male audience: they don't really notice the balanced gender representation, and if they do, it's not a negative thing to (most) of them. As you said, I really feel like nothing is being lost.

Vampire demonstrates it's possible to have pictures of attractive, sexy women in an rpg without being sexist.

Right. Women want their fantasy characters to look cool too, and not see artwork that assumes females are for the consumption of men. When it's no longer one-sided sexual objectification, sexism is not a problem.

While I do like the bare midriff on the PHB 4 cover, mostly because it's so contemporary (like the 70s moustaches in 1e art which seem so dated now), showing cleavage, midriff and thigh is going a bit far.

The artwork for 4e isn't too bad. Bare midriffs aren't very contemporary for adult women living in 2009, though. If they were being presented in a contemporary way, they'd all be in tunics or dresses with a pair of leggings. Also, like many other proud and ardent feminists, I don't mind cool, sexy looking women - as long as it's tasteful. Cleavage, midriff, and thigh showing can be cool, but usually that stuff is drawn to titilate men instead. And this kind of goes back to what you originally said. I think guys and women want GOOD artwork, and probably wouldn't felt that they lost anything if the women were less "sexy" and more cool looking.

That said I think D&D has some intrinsic features which means even if those changes are made it will never appeal to women anything like as much as men. For the same reason action movies and shoot-em-up videogames are more popular with men while romcoms and Harlequin novels are more popular with women.

This is kinda a boys are blue, girls are pink type argument. If that was true, then the numbers of women playing videogames wouldn't be consistently rising. And while action movies are marketed towards guys, I've consistently seen lots of women in attendance (if not in equal numbers, then very close). Also, romcoms? Have you watched any Judd Apatow movies? And all the movies that have come out recently that are in the same vein? It's all about the bromance, but with male/female relationships also being an important part of the storyline. I think those movies are tripe, but I also don't like romcoms period.

Anyway, to get back on topic, what I mentioned is somewhat decent evidence (well, in my opinion - you can disagree) that "instrinsic" is a really bad word to use here. What is common for the genders is pretty fluid and heavily influenced by society.

 

[S'mon]

The sexual stereotype above is inherently sexist -- albeit actually reflective of broad demographics...

Reality is sexist? I thought only people could be sexist (or racist etc), not facts. It doesn't seem like a good idea to call facts a loaded word like sexist, anyway.

 

[Dice4Hire]

If you are male, then it is not possible for you to make a valid judgement on whether or not there is or is not a problem with sexism in gaming. You cannot experience the same sort of discrimination as women, as you are not one.

I appreciate that the second statement there is going to provoke some comments. I'm happy to discuss this view.

Simply put, this statement is patently false. If you extend this even to obvious levels: racist, political, religious, income level, upbringing, criminal record, etc, you are saying no one can understand anyone else.

It is not necessary to experience something to realize that it is happening, and draw deductions about how it affects people. If so, we had best stop studying history, psychology, sociology etc as we are all such unique snowflakes that no one can understand each other, in your view.

 

[Dice4Hire]

If you are male, then it is not possible for you to make a valid judgement on whether or not there is or is not a problem with sexism in gaming. You cannot experience the same sort of discrimination as women, as you are not one.

I appreciate that the second statement there is going to provoke some comments. I'm happy to discuss this view.

Simply put, this statement is patently false. If you extend this even to obvious levels: racist, political, religious, income level, upbringing, criminal record, etc, you are saying no one can understand anyone else.

It is not necessary to experience something to realize that it is happening, and draw deductions about how it affects people. If the statement above were true, we had best stop studying history, psychology, sociology etc as we are all such unique snowflakes that no one can understand each other, in your view.

 

[Ariosto]

Reality is sexist? I thought only people could be sexist (or racist etc), not facts. It doesn't seem like a good idea to call facts a loaded word like sexist, anyway.

There is a difference between fact and inference, coincidence and causation, and other things often confused (sometimes willfully) in rhetorical representations of reality.

 

[S'mon]

...I also don't like romcoms...

But you were born a man, right?

 

[Cadfan]

This is kinda a boys are blue, girls are pink type argument. If that was true, then the numbers of women playing videogames wouldn't be consistently rising.

Not strictly true. There could be a "natural" rate of women playing video games that's higher than we are now, but which is still below 50%. Or there could be a shift due to a shift in video game publications (say, less Halo XII and more Wii Sports). Or any number of other things.

I do think that there's a difference in the rates at which men and women like things like action movies filled with explosions and whatnot. I don't view that as any more unreasonable a thing to say than that there is probably a difference in the rate at which boys and girls like stories about ponies. (I know that there's a whole culture v innate traits issue here, I'm not really interested in getting into it since its not relevant at the moment.)

 

[Proserpine]

But you were born a man, right?

Nope. Born with and still in possession of my lady parts.

 

[S'mon]

Nope. Born with and still in possession of my lady parts.

Oh, I thought you said upthread you were transsexual/cross-gendered or some such.

 

[Proserpine]

Not strictly true. There could be a "natural" rate of women playing video games that's higher than we are now, but which is still below 50%. Or there could be a shift due to a shift in video game publications (say, less Halo XII and more Wii Sports). Or any number of other things.

I do think that there's a difference in the rates at which men and women like things like action movies filled with explosions and whatnot. I don't view that as any more unreasonable a thing to say than that there is probably a difference in the rate at which boys and girls like stories about ponies. (I know that there's a whole culture v innate traits issue here, I'm not really interested in getting into it since its not relevant at the moment.)

You are right that it's not strictly true, but I think the change in society (as in, we're less sexist) is a major reason why female participation has been increasing over time.

I think culture vs. innate traits is relevant, so my take on this is influenced by that. As the lovely Jewel put it, "what we call human nature in actuality is human habit"! But yeah, that's just my opinion.