Sexism in D&D and on ENWorld (now with SOLUTIONS!)

[Proserpine]

I'd happily point everyone in the direction of the The F-Word: Contemporary UK Feminism - The F-Word, which she blogs for, if they want to read on further about UK Feminism.

I'm probably straying a little off-topic, but that's a very nice site. The blogging on there is great.

Though it's more Americentric feminism, Shakesville is a nice site. And Tiger Beatdown, a feminist blog with only one contributor (who is hilarious), occassionally has some nice posts dissecting sci-fi stuff, along with other media.

 

[Bumbles]

No, that's not what I was saying, though I should have dropped racism from my list to be clearer (since I was using race in the D&D sense, not the real-world version). I was responding to comments which seemed to assume that by advocating removing sexism I was saying that no campaign setting should ever deal with discrimination in game, which is absolutely not my intent. What I was saying was that games can explore discrimination which doesn't map onto real-world discrimination and which especially doesn't treat real-world discrimination as the norm. For example, the tried and true trope of elves and dwarves not getting along with each other. That's something which can be in a game and allows one to explore discrimination, if one wants to, without it having to be real-world discrimination.

Um, that doesn't actually look like much of an improvement to me. Let me put it another way, if you want to argue for caution in exploring certain themes in your games, that's one thing, but accepting some forms of discrimination but not others as fit for covering, well, I advise against saying it like that. I think it comes out as a little bit discriminatory itself. I know you're not trying to say that, but it can come across that way.

Fair enough. It was a hyperbolic analogy, but mainly because I was trying to illustrate how hyperbolic and illogical I think the argument I was commenting on is.

It really doesn't, as it doesn't serve as an effective analogy since it's really quite flawed. Not in a minor way, but a fundamental one. And you were doing so well up till then...

Well, this thread was originally intended to start a discussion about the existence of sexism in D&D, but you're right that offering some solutions might be in order. I'll post some shortly.

Thanks. So far I have nothing much to offer in the way of feedback on your suggestions, but I do appreciate you bringing them up. Some of them would be quite workable, and you managed to avoid the particular bit I cautioned you about above.

So so far so good.

Also, what did you think of the review of the campaign setting I linked to earlier?

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I remember that female players of mine who complained about perceived institutional sexism in my regular Gygaxian medievalesque campaign world, had no problem with sexism when I ran a short Conan campaign for them. In fact they relished playing butt-kicking barbarian women who rapidly acquired nubile young male companions.

I really have to disagree with this as an example of how women are as sexist as men.

Dealing with sexism in-game, when they are already dealing with it in their lives, wass not fun. Being told by the DM that a female character will find it harder to gain in-game credibility and power is a clear indication that the game is based on sexist principles. Given that the social set-up of the game is entirely within the hands of the DM, I can understand why they were unhappy with that situation.

In contrast, taking a few hours to be on the other side of the divide, to be the ones doing the oppressing and being the dominant force within the bounds of a game, is an entirely different prospect.

 

[Desdichado]

I'm curious whether you think that my argumentation was poor or whether you think that our society (and again, I'll restrict myself to the USA) is not actually sexist. If the former, then my only excuse is that I was starting a thread to discuss something I find interesting and worth consideration, so I limited myself to a length which allowed me to make my point without making it overlong. I could write a manifesto which would explore in detail how pervasive I think sexism is in our society and gaming, but then nobody would bother to read through all of it and this conversation, which I think is at least interesting and hopefully productive, wouldn't have happened.

Well, they're related, aren't they? If I don't believe that our society is rampantly sexist, then I can't very well engage you in a discussion about a problem which I don't recognize. If you don't put forward some particulars about what the problem is, then what am I supposed to be discussing with you?

If you do mean, however, that you really don't believe that our society is sexist, then I can't really argue with you, because evidently your worldview and manner of seeing things is so different from mine that I don't think I could persuade you to see my POV. Let's just say that every day in the USA I see evidence in my own life and in what I hear or read about that we live in a heavily sexist society. Apparently some people on this thread (pawsplay, roguerouge and Mathew_Freeman being just three names which come to mind) agree. You clearly do not. And if the world around you doesn't make you see it, I'm quite certain that I cannot.

I suspect that you're probably right. I'm not ancient, by any means, but I'm old enough that when someone describes "my" society in a way that contradicts my many years of experience with it, then I don't just go, "oh, wow, I've never thought of it that way before!" because, let's face it; I have thought of it that way before and rejected that claim as untenable with my experience.

I suppose what I don't like is the vibe, explicitly stated in Matthew_Freeman's post here, but really kinda running throughout the thread as a whole (as much of it as I've read anyway, which admittedly is far from the entire thing:

I do agree with shilsen, and I think this thread provides plenty of evidence both that gamers are pretty aware of the situation and want to change it, and that gamers are also blindly unaware of themselves, their actions, and how it makes other people feel.

So... either we're anti-sexism activists, or we're unaware and ignorant people who are contributing to the problem. What does not seem to enter the realm of possibility for you is that I (and I consider myself a fairly representative gamer for my age group) am perfectly aware of what is and isn't sexist behavior and yet I still see no call for change in the gaming arena over all. I don't believe products (in general) are sexist (in fact they're so deliberately non-sexist that it calls attention to itself, which is generally a sign of having gone too far as far as I'm concerned.) I don't believe the people I game with are sexist. I make no claims about the discussion on ENWorld in general, or about gamers other than those I know personally, because I've been posting very infrequently here the last few years, and besides, I'm neither responsible for their behavior, nor particularly interested in it either.

Now, if you had posited some specific situations that we could discuss, well, then we could have a discussion. But since you haven't; you've merely claimed that there is a widespread problem that I don't see, and wanted to jump straight into talking about solutions, I'm having trouble engaging in the conversation.

Of course, I'd love to have a conversation about sexism in our society overall (as opposed to limiting it to gaming) but due to the nature of this place, this is a horrible venue for it. I'd do it on Circvs Maximvs, though.

 

[1Mac]

shilsen, this was way upthread, but I wanted to clarify. Earlier I wrote

Joss Whedon, who is of course my master, nevertheless frequently skirts this line, and it is only because he is such a good writer that he usually avoids crossing it. Stuff like the Charlie's Angels remake, or Kiera Knightly's Gweneviere in that King Arthur movie, Keira Knightly's character in Pirates of the Caribbean ("Try wearing a corsette!") cross it with reckless, hilarious aplomb. My point being that if you are trying to correct for sexism, rather than create interesting characters, you frequently fall on your face.

To which you responded

I'll agree about the preferred aim being to create interesting characters rather than simply correct for sexism, though I'm not sure I'd buy all your examples as successful ones. Joss, I agree, is brilliant at it most of the time.

This wildly misinterprets what I meant, though i concede that I could have been unclear. I meant the above as examples where the effort to create non-sexist characters at the expense of actual characterization goes terribly awry. The kinds of characters Keira Knightly tends to play are a caution to those who think removing sexism is an unalloyed good without any other consideration.

I would agree that the new Battlestar Galatica is a good example of getting it right. Ripley in the Alien franchise is also a good example.

Anyway, this thread has gotten way more gnarled and bifurcated since yesterday, such that I could not possibly absorb it all. But since I'm here, something I thought worth highlighting while I skimmed. Earlier I said that there is nothing inherently sexist in classic myth and fantasy, that their association with sexism depend on cultural factors that are no longer relevant today. A few people are saying that association is enough reason to purge those elements from fantasy in general and fantasy gaming in the specific.

Someone upthread said that this attitude, and not the attitude of fantasy preservationists, is what is exclusionary and divisive, and I think that is right. Writing fantasy from a more modern sensibility as far as gender goes is great, but that doesn't make classic fantasy tropes invalid simply because they may carry some sexist baggage. It doesn't even make them sexist.

 

[Gentlegamer]

What's wrong with being sexy?

 

[S'mon]

I really have to disagree with this as an example of how women are as sexist as men.

It wasn't intended to be "an example of how women are as sexist as men". It was an example of how sexism can be a problem sometimes (the regular game) but not others - the Conan game. The reason K gave me was that in the regular game she felt constrained, in the Conan game she could do what she liked, ergo the sexism of the setting was not a problem.

Obviously I had absolutely no problem with K and L's PCs acquiring nubile young male companions in an inversion of the usual conquering-male-barbarian tropes. I don't know if this was 'sexist' in some way, and I don't care. They enjoyed it, I enjoyed it, it was fun.

 

[Mallus]

What's wrong with being sexy?

Absolutely nothing.

 

[S'mon]

Dealing with sexism in-game, when they are already dealing with it in their lives, wass not fun. Being told by the DM that a female character will find it harder to gain in-game credibility and power is a clear indication that the game is based on sexist principles. Given that the social set-up of the game is entirely within the hands of the DM, I can understand why they were unhappy with that situation.

On the bright side, that unpleasant experience caused me to develop some GMing techniques to help ensure that future female players IMCs wouldn't have their enjoyment affected by perceived sexism, and in two subsequent lengthy campaigns with several female players (including two Californians!) I've not had any complaints.

 

[S'mon]

double post