So that's why you like it

[Hereticus]

yeah Nou, but 10,000 copper equals 100 dollars (not accounting for the current currency depreciation due to the economy), and so who can beat that kinda deal when you're lugging around bags of coins on your back?

Why a single man could carry enough copper on his person with the help of a mini-CAT to either see a cheap movie, eat almost six and a half times at Taco Bell, or melt that down and build a half-way decent CB radio antenna.

My wife said that a single woman would use a Purse of Holding.

 

[WayneLigon]

Can someone explain to me the appeal, which often borders on the fanatical, of using a point buying system for character creation in D&D?

There's a few good reasons for it.

1) It prevents cheating. A corollary to this is that you can be confident people can do the stat generation at home without worrying that they're just sitting there rolling and rolling until they get something they like.

2) You don't get someone having an 'unfair' advantage when he has really great dice luck and so can get all the cool feats with x-level stat requisites. This used to be much, much more pronounced in earlier D&D editions where you had to have stratospheric stats to do certain things. Everyone starts on a more level playing field.

As a corollary to 1 and 2, I'll be honest with you: the only people I've found who vehemetly hate point buy are cheaters and people for whom the best part of playing is being able to ourperform other PCs. I'm certain there are an equal or perhaps larger group that simply dislikes it for 'historical' or aesthetic reasons but I simply have not encountered any of them personally.

3) It prevents you from having to play a PC you dislike when you roll a 5 for Int and a 6 for Wis, etc. Of course you'll probably just let him die and roll up a new PC, but what's the point really when you can just go with point buy.

 

[Ariosto]

Point-buy D&D? Why, the better to enforce the concept of "dump stats"!

It's just a little part of the whole "build" ethos. What good is Charisma? Well, a Warlock can kill things with it -- which is pretty much the measure of character these days.

 

[billd91]

2) You don't get someone having an 'unfair' advantage when he has really great dice luck and so can get all the cool feats with x-level stat requisites. This used to be much, much more pronounced in earlier D&D editions where you had to have stratospheric stats to do certain things. Everyone starts on a more level playing field.

As a corollary to 1 and 2, I'll be honest with you: the only people I've found who vehemetly hate point buy are cheaters and people for whom the best part of playing is being able to ourperform other PCs. I'm certain there are an equal or perhaps larger group that simply dislikes it for 'historical' or aesthetic reasons but I simply have not encountered any of them personally.

On the flip side of this, in a game where some characters can be built around a single offensive stat and defenses are governed by 3 stats, not all of which are particularly useful for offense, or where some character classes have powers based on a single stat while others are multi-stat dependent, point buy leads to unbalanced characters with an unfair advantage. This is why I don't like point buy very much and will always have my players roll their stats in my games.

To me, point buy is the refuge of the min-maxer, where the ability to load up on a single stat and choose your dump stats is assured.

 

[Crothian]

To me, point buy is the refuge of the min-maxer, where the ability to load up on a single stat and choose your dump stats is assured.

I've seen something different. Point Buy people I know tend to be the ones that have a solid character concept and want to be able to get the stats they want to create the character. Or they came to D&D from another system that was a point buy system.

The ones the roll dice tend to either be long time D&D players or don't really care what they play so don't mind that their attributes are random.

Keep in mind that when we roll attributes we don't do a lot of this fancy rerolling, assign attributes were you want, or allow players to roll more then one set. Attributes have always been over rated in this game IMO.

 

[Hussar]

Ok, I have thought of another...

Riddles and other such puzzles. Especially the long tedious ones, like those logic ones you need a chart to figure out.

I can get puzzles in real life, and I like mysteries in games, but do I want to do a crossword playing a game?

As someone who hates puzzles in games with the heat of the thousand suns, I totally agree with you. However, I do realize that there are some out there that really jones on this sort of thing. Having those in the game, particularly in some old school type dungeon crawls gives things a nice nostalgic feel and appeals to a certain group of gamer that likes this sort of thing.

Look at the Paizo adventure paths. Shackled City had the Starry Mirror puzzle where you had to figure out the proper combination based on color clues. Savage Tide had a combination lock with clues for discovering the combination.

It's a lot like mazes. Seems like a really good idea that can be a lot of fun with the right group. Unfortunately for me, I don't belong to that group and think doing mazes in game are akin to teeth extraction.

Most of the things that people are baffled by seem to be explained, but I will look through and see if there are any I can elaborate on. Since I do not have an answer, I will supply a question. Can someone explain to me the appeal, which often borders on the fanatical, of using a point buying system for character creation in D&D? I understand it in a lot of other game systems where it was built in from the start, but in D&D it has always seemed to be a tacked on after-market attachment. Over the last few years I have seen lots of people with a strong attachment to point buying and an equally strong hatred of rolling for attributes. I honestly do not get it.

I think it stems from a couple of things. First, the heavy reliance on game balance in 3e D&D and forward has really made people aware of how imbalancing high stats can be. Plus, having one player roll a 40 point value character and another roll a 20 value, all protestations of good roleplay aside, can make things really, really difficult in the game.

Additionally, I don't think I'm alone in playing with players and DM's who basically had very, very lenient "rolling" systems (used in quotes because you were mostly picking your stats anyway) that resulted in pretty much everyone having a least one 18 on their character sheet. Heck, look at the Unearthed Arcana (1e) rolling system and you might as well just use point buy.

Point-buy D&D? Why, the better to enforce the concept of "dump stats"!

It's just a little part of the whole "build" ethos. What good is Charisma? Well, a Warlock can kill things with it -- which is pretty much the measure of character these days.

Yeah, because no one dump statted Cha previous to 4e. Right. Gimme a break. There's a reason that the Unearthed Arcana rolling method used 3d6 for Cha for any class other than maybe Paladin, Druid and Ranger and that's because those three classes had class minimums.

Gimme a break. Why bother thread crapping with edition war crap when this is the best you can come up with?

 

[InVinoVeritas]

Point-buy D&D? Why, the better to enforce the concept of "dump stats"!

It's just a little part of the whole "build" ethos. What good is Charisma? Well, a Warlock can kill things with it -- which is pretty much the measure of character these days.

Charisma is only useless if you require yourself to be the source of all successes. If you wish to do anything managerial or wield real power, then Charisma is important.

The other abilities are all about doing things. Charisma is all about getting other people to do those things for you, and let you take credit. A good Diplomacy check is better than a Charm Person spell. A strong fighter or an intelligent wizard can rush into battle and destroy the competition, but the charismatic leader will have that strong fighter or intelligent wizard at his beck and call--and the fighter or wizard will love it.

If you measure progress solely by individual body count, then sure, Charisma's weak. But if you measure progress by money, influence, and access, then it's all about Charisma.

 

[Hussar]

On the flip side of this, in a game where some characters can be built around a single offensive stat and defenses are governed by 3 stats, not all of which are particularly useful for offense, or where some character classes have powers based on a single stat while others are multi-stat dependent, point buy leads to unbalanced characters with an unfair advantage. This is why I don't like point buy very much and will always have my players roll their stats in my games.

To me, point buy is the refuge of the min-maxer, where the ability to load up on a single stat and choose your dump stats is assured.

Whereas, to me, the die roller is the refuge of cheaters who will roll and roll and roll until they get the stats they want anyway.

Or, to put it another way, assuming you use 4d6, how many characters in your current campaign have a pre-racially adjusted ability score under 9? Presuming 4 players, that's 32 stats. I'm no statistician, so, other people can say how many rolls should be under 9, but, I'm guessing the number in your campaign is going to be higher. According to This site 16% of your rolls should be 9 or less. Out of 32 stats, that means that 5 of them should be 9 or less. How many are that on your party's character sheets?

 

[Crothian]

Presuming 4 players, that's 32 stats.

24 stats (6 attributes per four characters). Your point is still valid though.

 

[billd91]

Whereas, to me, the die roller is the refuge of cheaters who will roll and roll and roll until they get the stats they want anyway.

Or, to put it another way, assuming you use 4d6, how many characters in your current campaign have a pre-racially adjusted ability score under 9? Presuming 4 players, that's 32 stats. I'm no statistician, so, other people can say how many rolls should be under 9, but, I'm guessing the number in your campaign is going to be higher. According to This site 16% of your rolls should be 9 or less. Out of 32 stats, that means that 5 of them should be 9 or less. How many are that on your party's character sheets?

You're asking how many of my players have to play the stats they roll? All of them. Them's the breaks. They roll them up in front of me. Lots end up under 9. They have stats ranging down to 5 in the SCAP game I'm running now.
On the other hand, how many characters have a prime stat of 17+ under point buy compared to rolling (before racial adjustments)? A heck of a lot more.