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Spell Compendium: What are the "broken" spells?

Eldritch_Lord

Adventurer
I think you're talking about the Necromancy spells, both are high level. One is Avasculate, the other is Avascular Mass, iirc. Not sure if they're boken or not, but they are very strong, a good reason to not pick Necromancy as a banned school. :)
And I think the save is against being dazed or stunned for a round.

Correct: Avasculate/Avascular Mass take out half current HP, no save, and then require a Fort save to avoid being stunned for a round. They require a touch attack, however, so it isn't necessarily guaranteed damage...though it is pretty close.

In the last campaign I ran, four of the ten casters in the campaign took Avasculate when they got access to 7th level spells, two of them in each five-person party...when they both met up, they could effectively drop a creature to 1/16 health and auto-stun them. Fun times.
 

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Elder-Basilisk

First Post
The ones I remember:

Paladin:
Rhino's rush--double damage is never a good idea
Find the gap--nothing should ever make melee attacks into touch attacks. It is very bad juju when you can power attack for max, smite evil and spirited charge/rhino's rush. Level 12 characters end up dealing near 100 points of damage per hit and only missing on a 1.

Cleric:
Conviction and mass conviction--not too bad at low levels, but starting at level 12 or so, these become all day buffs (or at least all adventuring day). Massive stacking bonuses to saves make save abilities much less useful.
Mass resist energy--If this were level 5, it might be acceptable. As a level 3 spell that nerfs any single energy encounter into oblivion, it is too much.
Delay Death--Quite simply, death from damage ceases to be a possibility after level 10 or so as long as your cleric has a minor action left. This spell changes the game in a dramatic way that is not for the better. (I recommend house-ruling the death at -10 rule to death at -(10+character level) to fix the real problem).

Wizard:
Wraithstrike Nothing should ever make melee attacks into touch attacks. This is even worse than find the gap since it applies to all attacks for one round and can be trivially extended with a lesser rod of extend spell.
Avasculate and derivatives. 3.0 harm demonstrated that doing fractions of monsters hit points was never a good idea. Making it a wizard spell doesn't mean it belongs back in the game.
Girallon's blessing Mostly a bad idea when stacked on top of a combat familiar/animal companion (generally through the arcane heirophant prestige class).
Evard's menacing tentacles Another item that is a bad idea when stacked on top of an animal companion familiar through Arcane Heirophant. (Arcane heirophant is a large part of the problem here, but this and Girallon's blessing prove to be broken in the only situations where they are useful indicating that they probably don't have a non-broken but useful application (much like persistent spell--it's either useless or broken in nearly every situation)).
 

Remathilis

Legend
Thanks so far...

What about the (Lesser) Energy Orb spells? I've seen them in use and they are strong, but are they really worth banning?

Similarly, what about Revivify? Or Pancea?

I'm still looking for additional input, not just on these but on others (I'm glad none of my PCs noticed Avasculate)
 

Evilusion

First Post
Brambles is another one. 2nd level spell +1 to hit and damage up to a max of +10(granted this is only with wooden weapon). Combined with some of the other cleric spells(the one that lets you fight as a fighter, can not remember the name) and you now a have cleric who with out a magic weapon can bypass or negate most DR's just do to the sheer amount of damage and attacks.

Evilusion
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Vortex of Teeth, Druid 4, sorc/wizard 4, is pretty ridiculous. The area effect, when playing in closed quarters of a dungeon or fortress, is huge.

Among the most serious problems of the Spell Compendium is what it does to the size of the cleric and druid spell lists. These two classes (and any others who can prep from a limited list of spells) are given a pretty significant bump in power by adding all these spells to the mix. Even if we were to assume that each individual spell was well-balanced, the net effect would be to give clerics and druids significant advantages in flexibility over a spontaneous caster with a limited "known" list or even a wizard whose list is potentially endless but must buy most of those spells.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Thanks so far...

What about the (Lesser) Energy Orb spells? I've seen them in use and they are strong, but are they really worth banning?

They are super-useful and will negate most of the advantages things like golems and high-SR creatures have on the caster. When on a very limited list like the warmage's, they fill a certain niche. The warmage is very damage-spell dependent, with few encounter-ending spells that so many people seem to say are so much better than damaging spells (something of which I'm not convinced). Of all classes, he kind of needs them.

But on a general wizard list and open to all who use those lists, I think they may be a bit too good. Their range is shorter than, say, fireball, but with the "back to the dungeon" ethos of 3e, range was rarely a problem. And with the spotting rules of 3.5 (one of the worst changes from 3.0 to 3.5) based on the Spot check and the -1/10' distance, nobody is seeing anybody at extended fireball ranged anyway.
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Rhino's rush--double damage is never a good idea

I don't think it's that bad. Paladins should have more options to be nasty at charging. Barbarians and Tome of Battle classes just blow them out of the water in that area. Heck, wildshaping druids, too.

Find the gap--nothing should ever make melee attacks into touch attacks. It is very bad juju when you can power attack for max, smite evil and spirited charge/rhino's rush. Level 12 characters end up dealing near 100 points of damage per hit and only missing on a 1.

Again, not that bad, and no where near as bad as Wraithstrike. It's level 3 or 4, and a Pal/Raner/Asn spell only, so it's not even available till late game. Takes a standard to cast, and only lasts round/level, benefitting one attack per round. I think in general classes like these (and Hexblade, etc...) should have better spells. And as I noted before, Tome of Battle classes, STILL put these classes to shame. Maybe you don't use ToB, and that's part of our divide in opinion. Because by level 12, they can do that kind of damage in one attack, too. As can a druid wildshaped as a large cat. As can a barbarian built right.

And there are other ways to do melee touch attacks. ToB has Emerald Razor maneuver, available at ECL 3. Standard action, one attack against touch AC. It's useful, but not broken, and gets overshadowed for damage by later strike maneuvers IME. MIC has the heartseeker amulet to get a single attack against touch AC, and the impaling weapon enhancement, a +1 bonus. Both swift to activate and 3/day. The amulet is probably broken, the weapon property might also be, but is more limited in what it can be applied ot and ultimately will cost a lot more. I'm sure there's more ways out there, these (and Wraithstrike) are just the ones I can think of right now. Of all the possibilities, though, Find the Gap is by far the weakest of such options.



Mass resist energy--If this were level 5, it might be acceptable. As a level 3 spell that nerfs any single energy encounter into oblivion, it is too much.

We put it to level 4 for arcane and divine casters. It's still very strong, and I may move it to 5th level in later campaigns. On that note, I'm not sure the Energy Immunity (or whatever the name is) spell should even exist. It does as it sounds like -- pick a type, and you're immune ot it. Lasts all day, and only level 6. I'd ban that before even nerfing Mass Energy Resist.

Delay Death--Quite simply, death from damage ceases to be a possibility after level 10 or so as long as your cleric has a minor action left. This spell changes the game in a dramatic way that is not for the better. (I recommend house-ruling the death at -10 rule to death at -(10+character level) to fix the real problem).

It still only lasts round/level, and if the target is't healed enough by the end of the duration, he's still quite screwed. I could see it in tandem with Revivify, but that'd get pricy, and is the kind of repeated abuse a DM should just say no to. Enemies, meanwhile, are free to attack other creatures. It's a level 4 spell, it will be too limited to buff the netire party with it in one combat (not to mention take several rounds to do) till near epic.
It could then cause problems, though.

Wraithstrike Nothing should ever make melee attacks into touch attacks. This is even worse than find the gap since it applies to all attacks for one round and can be trivially extended with a lesser rod of extend spell.
It's also available at ECL 3. Yeah, this one is the most ban-worthy in the whole book.
 

green slime

First Post
I've banned the Orb spells, not for their power, but because they encroach on the thematic flavour of the school of Evocation. With their inclusion, no convoker is going to miss banning the school of evocation.
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Thanks so far...

What about the (Lesser) Energy Orb spells? I've seen them in use and they are strong, but are they really worth banning?

Similarly, what about Revivify? Or Pancea?

I'm still looking for additional input, not just on these but on others (I'm glad none of my PCs noticed Avasculate)

Magic Missile is roughly equal to lesser orbs. d4 +1 vs. d8 damage; force vs. energy type (force can also harm ethereal ceatures, on top of being almost unresistable); auto-hit vs. ranged touch (worse overall, though it can crit); damage that can be multi-target vs. single target only; SR vs. no SR. So, magic missile does ~1 less damage and allows SR, and is just plain better in every other way. Same damage advancement, too.

The level 4 orbs, i don't have as handy a comparision, but they aren't ban-worthy, either. Definitely very strong, though. I could do this...empowered Scorching Ray deals 12d6 in two shots at CL 7 (earliest you can normally cast it) and then jumps to 18d6 in three shots at CL 11. Orbs do 1d6/level straight, until capping at 15, allow no SR, are single shot, and have a fort save vs. minor to moderately annoying 1 round debuff. Seems about even to me, orb might be overall a little more useful. Orb would seem to be only better once you reach CL 15+, to have comaparable damage. And of course, energy resistance bones scorching ray, though it also has the nice option of multi-target.

Revivify is a great spell, I personalyl would not want to ban it. But if you don't like the prevalence of raise abilities, maybe you do. I like that it allows PCs to not suffer the "death penalty." In fact, as far as I'm concerned, sicne the soul hasn't left, they're still not entirely dead, so flavor-wise it's a nice means to avoid death seeming cheap. Die, get dragged to the temple of Pelor, and have raise cast on you? Yeah, kinda cheapens death. Fall to the ground and have your pulse stop, only moments later for your ally to wrench your soul back into you and keep you from leaving the mortal world? That's badass.

I don't see why Panacea is broken. It's higher level than any of the individual spells that would cure the effects it can. It's just a nice utility spell. At very high levels, a Cleric might consider keeping one 4th level slot with it prepared is always worth it just in case, but what's so bad about that? No different than high level wizards using their low level slots for utility and buff spells.

EDIT: My problem with orb spells is that they're conjurations. Conjuration is already one of, if not the most powerful schools. And a lot of powergamers think evocation is worthless and pick it as a banned school. When conjuration can so easily compete with evocation for direct damage, it's no wonder. We made the orb spells evocations, but left them otherwise unchanged. Yes, evocations with no SR. Enjoy, Evokers! You deserve it.
 
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green slime

First Post
If Resist Elements is a second level spell, as it is for wizards and clerics, it is blatantly obvious that the Mass variant is far too low at 3rd. Even 4th, is still too low. I agree with Elder-Basilisk about this being a 5th level spell.

In general, IMC, we have house-ruled the "Mass" spell variants to be 3 levels above their normal variants.
 

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