Visions of Avarice trivializes melee encounters?

[KarinsDad]

Games can define and descibe magic differently. VIsions of Avarice is not a charm effect because it doesn't force you to act in a specific way. Instead it creates a specific illusion that guarantees you to act in a specific way.
No difference in the effect, a big difference in what happens in the game.

Sorry, but bullhockey.

Arcane Power explicitly states that Illusions are mind affecting. They DO force you to act in a specific way. The Illusion keyword in the PHB states nothing about mind affects.

This is a rules forum. The rules for Illusions in the PHB are concerned solely with images.

The rules for Charm in the PBH are concerned solely with compulsion.

There is no keyword concerned with mental compulsion powers outside of Charm.

The rules for Illusions in Arcane Power create this new system that does not follow the PHB rules, does not state how it changes those rules, does not state how it interacts with those rules.

Having a different type of Illusion magic than the 3.5 ruleset is totally fine.

Not defining how the new Arcane Power Illusion magic works with the 4E ruleset, not fine.

I am not complaining that they do not have figments in 4E. I am complaining that Arcane Power introduced a new type of Illusion without defining the rules for it.


If the designers do not want that to be a Charm effect, I'm ok with that.

But, define it. Explain how the mind influencing works and how to protect against it. Add magic items that allow creatures to not be affected by mind effecting Illusions, etc. Can the Insight skill be used to detect a mind affecting Illusion? Maybe. How does Psychic damage and Illusion work?

As is, the rules concerning Illusions are vague at best.

I'm talking about the rules, not a rationale to explain why the powers work the way they do.

I could use a Charm spell to fall in love with a random stranger.
I could alternative use a Illusion spell to disguise that random stranger in every way as the man or woman of your dreams. You would react pretty similar in either case.

Err, no. You are adding concepts to the game system that are NOT defined as rules.

Do you rob a bank with billions of dollars in it, just because your dream is to be rich?

Do some people about to be hit by a car jump out of the way and others stand there and get hit like Deer caught in headlights? The image is the same.

If I am not magically compelled to do something, it doesn't matter what the image looks like. I may, or may not do what the caster of the Illusion wants me to do. Each creature will react in their own way.

You are adding a mental magical compulsion to Illusions that Illusions in the PHB do not have. In order to do that, the rules have to be defined.

Again, I am ok with that. I just want the rules for it.

 

[Infiniti2000]

He just means there were 4 waves of 10 minions each, so 10 would come on the scene, get pulled into the zone, and killed, then another 10 would show up, etc...

Ah, so they were lemming minions.

 

[Stalker0]

Ah, so they were lemming minions.

Actually the minions were summoned into the fight, but after that died like lemmings

 

[Starfox]

You are adding a mental magical compulsion to Illusions that Illusions in the PHB do not have. In order to do that, the rules have to be defined.

Its exception based design. Each power does exactly what it says it does. There might be certain effects that give bonuses against Illusion, but other than that, these powers don't have much in common. If one illusion effect forces movement, that's just how it is. It is the effect of the power. Fear effects can force movement. Telekinetic effects force movement. Fire effects force movement. There is no real difference; its all effects. Certain effects tend to go with certain keywords, like slow with cold, but there is nothing forcing certain effects (like Dominate, for example) to use a certain keyword (such as charm). It is just very common.

The idea that each category of spells had to have their own rules is 3e. Insight seems specifically limited to Deception rituals; if you read their effects you'll notice references to Insight, but not in illusion powers.

 

[KarinsDad]

Its exception based design. Each power does exactly what it says it does. There might be certain effects that give bonuses against Illusion, but other than that, these powers don't have much in common. If one illusion effect forces movement, that's just how it is. It is the effect of the power. Fear effects can force movement. Telekinetic effects force movement. Fire effects force movement. There is no real difference; its all effects. Certain effects tend to go with certain keywords, like slow with cold, but there is nothing forcing certain effects (like Dominate, for example) to use a certain keyword (such as charm). It is just very common.

This is a bit of a copout. This is sloppy design. There should be metarules on how powers are designed by designers.

When there are not metarules, then design bugs creep in.

I'll give you an example.

Battlerage Vigor Fighters can easily be immune or nearly immune to Minions. Why? Because the designer of BRV didn't take minions into account. They added a concept of gaining temporary hit points when getting hit and opps.

Ditto for not taking into account Insight when designing Illusion powers in Arcane Power.

Another example, not knowing if all aspects of an Illusion are ignored for a creature immune to Illusions. Does the Psychic damage still get through? Does the condition still get through? The Resistance rules do not apply to Immunities and the MM glossary definition leans slightly in the opposite direction, so each DM might rule differently.

Clear rules need to be defined, especially when a keyword is used for effects that it was never use for in earlier game material.

The idea that each category of spells had to have their own rules is 3e. Insight seems specifically limited to Deception rituals; if you read their effects you'll notice references to Insight, but not in illusion powers.

One of the things a PC can do at any time is tell the DM that he is wanting to use Insight to recognize an effect as Illusory. The DC is 15 + the effect's level. One cannot state that the rule does not exist if the power does not state that you can use it. Exception based design indicates that the skill can work unless the power states that it cannot.

So literally, the effect of every mental Illusion in Arcane Power can be detected as such with an Insight skill check.

That makes sense for Illusory Wall because it is just an image. It makes less sense for Visions of Avarice because the immobilized foe might make the skill check, know it is an illusion, but still be "mentally compelled" to be immobilized by a mental image. The creature could be immune to Charm and know it is an Illusion, but still be compelled.

When the designers do not take all game elements into account when designing new features, the game suffers.

The game especially suffers because WotC doesn't take the time to correct game design in errata and instead, stealths it into Character Builder, the Compendium, and future splat books.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Sorry, but bullhockey.

Arcane Power explicitly states that Illusions are mind affecting. They DO force you to act in a specific way. The Illusion keyword in the PHB states nothing about mind affects.

This is a rules forum. The rules for Illusions in the PHB are concerned solely with images.

The rules for Charm in the PBH are concerned solely with compulsion.

There is no keyword concerned with mental compulsion powers outside of Charm.

The rules for Illusions in Arcane Power create this new system that does not follow the PHB rules, does not state how it changes those rules, does not state how it interacts with those rules.

Having a different type of Illusion magic than the 3.5 ruleset is totally fine.

Not defining how the new Arcane Power Illusion magic works with the 4E ruleset, not fine.

I am not complaining that they do not have figments in 4E. I am complaining that Arcane Power introduced a new type of Illusion without defining the rules for it.


If the designers do not want that to be a Charm effect, I'm ok with that.

But, define it. Explain how the mind influencing works and how to protect against it. Add magic items that allow creatures to not be affected by mind effecting Illusions, etc. Can the Insight skill be used to detect a mind affecting Illusion? Maybe. How does Psychic damage and Illusion work?

As is, the rules concerning Illusions are vague at best.

I'm talking about the rules, not a rationale to explain why the powers work the way they do.



Err, no. You are adding concepts to the game system that are NOT defined as rules.

Do you rob a bank with billions of dollars in it, just because your dream is to be rich?

Do some people about to be hit by a car jump out of the way and others stand there and get hit like Deer caught in headlights? The image is the same.

If I am not magically compelled to do something, it doesn't matter what the image looks like. I may, or may not do what the caster of the Illusion wants me to do. Each creature will react in their own way.

You are adding a mental magical compulsion to Illusions that Illusions in the PHB do not have. In order to do that, the rules have to be defined.

Again, I am ok with that. I just want the rules for it.

I think you are seeing a "rules system" of classifications and categories that just doesn't exist and was never intended.

I guess your first sentence says it best.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think you are seeing a "rules system" of classifications and categories that just doesn't exist and was never intended.

So, you think the rules are crystal clear (having read the Immunity section of the MM) how Illusion Immunity works with Psychic/Illusion spells?

 

[Lord Ernie]

So, you think the rules are crystal clear (having read the Immunity section of the MM) how Illusion Immunity works with Psychic/Illusion spells?

Check out the Errata/Update/Whatever in DDI or the MM2 for this:

Immune

A creature that is immune to a damage type (such as cold or fire), a condition (such as dazed or petrified), or another specific effect (such as disease or forced movement) is not affected by it. A creature that is immune to charm, fear, illusion, poison, or sleep is not affected by the nondamaging effects of a power that has that keyword. A creature that is immune to gaze is not affected by powers that have that keyword.

While I dislike stealth errata as a rule, this is a much needed clarification, and to me seems crystal clear.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So, you think the rules are crystal clear (having read the Immunity section of the MM) how Illusion Immunity works with Psychic/Illusion spells?

I don't see how that is relevant to determine whether Visions of Avarice are "really" an illusion or are "mind-affecting" or "charm", "compulsion", "figment", "glamer" or whatever.
Your "problem" seemed to be that the illusion caused forced movement or movement related effects and that you were considering this an effect appropriate for telekinesis or charms, not illusions, and you seemed to base it on certain assumptions on how this magic "should" work. But those assumptions seem not actually supported by the rules to me.

 

[KarinsDad]

But those assumptions seem not actually supported by the rules to me.

Not by the new rules.

The new rules explicitly state that Illusions can be mind affecting without adding in any rules to explicitly defend against that.