Rain of Steel: Modifiers?

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

It doesn't make them move. They get hit by the effect regardless - it's on the start of their turn, so it's in the hand of the fighter as to whether he wants to move up.

It's not a strawman, or at least not intended as one. Both stances have a reason not to be by the fighter with a significant lack of control over that option by it being start of turn. Once you've taken the damage from the start of your turn, Rain of Steel _ceases to have any effect_ so there's no additional reason not to go ahead and do whatever you want, such as attacking the wizard.

Whereas the effect I listed beefs up all of the retaliation abilities the fighter has for defense, and gives the enemy a penalty to attack his allies.

Rain of Steel does not cease to have an effect. If the enemy doesn't get away from your allies, they take the damage again on their next turn, and the next turn, and the next turn. Any of them that are adjacent to you, not just the one you can hit with your Combat Challenge attack, which as an immediate interrupt is really only a problem for the first enemy that attacks your ally or shifts.

And, Combat Challenge is boosted more by Rain of Blows than by what you suggested:

Attack roll for 2[W]+mods
vs.
Automatic 1[W]+some mods and attack roll for 1[W]+mods

So really all you get is the penalty to attack, which isn't any better than forcing the enemy to move or killing it quicker.

Rain of Blows as written is as good or better a defender power than your suggestion. It may not be the flavor of defender you prefer, but it is clearly a defender power.

 

[keterys]

If Rain of Steel triggered on the end of their turn, or if Rain of Steel triggered if they ended their turn adjacent to one of your allies, then it would do what you seem to think it does.

But it does not. It is a tremendously good damage increase, but it is not a defender power. It encourages monsters to not group in such a way that the defender can base multiple of them in one position, definitely. It does nothing to encourage them not to attack the defender's allies nor does it make them move.

For example, if you're fighting a solo it does _nothing_ to encourage that Solo to move, because the fighter will always base it by the start of its turn.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

If Rain of Steel triggered on the end of their turn, or if Rain of Steel triggered if they ended their turn adjacent to one of your allies, then it would do what you seem to think it does.

But it does not. It is a tremendously good damage increase, but it is not a defender power. It encourages monsters to not group in such a way that the defender can base multiple of them in one position, definitely. It does nothing to encourage them not to attack the defender's allies nor does it make them move.

For example, if you're fighting a solo it does _nothing_ to encourage that Solo to move, because the fighter will always base it by the start of its turn.

It does what I said it does, not what I "seem to think" it does. What's with that?

Monsters take damage, then have a choice between making one attack and staying taking damage at the start of its next turn or make one attack and moving, not taking damage. One of them will be subject to a combat challenge attack if/when he attacks, which will be more of a threat because the monster will have already taken damage.

Your penalty/combat challenge/AO option means the enemy makes one attack with a penalty and stays, then make another attack with a penalty and stays, because there is no downside to staying put. None. -2 to hit or move and not be able to hit ally at all = no incentive to move. Take damage or move and not be able to hit ally at all = incentive to move. Your version actually encourages the monster to stay adjacent to your allies because it increases the damage of opportunity attacks, which are triggered in this situation (melee combatants adjacent to your allies) by movement.

Moving the damage to the end just allows all of the enemies to make an attack before taking damage. They have the same incentive to move as they did before, it just lets the monsters do damage before the PC. And, since they get that one attack before taking damage, they stay up for one attack's worth of damage longer, letting them make more attacks on your allies.

Some solos try to move away from Rain of Blows, if only to force the fighter into using a charge rather than one of his non-charge powers in combination with it.

It's a defender power. It isn't the best defender power for all situations and it may appeal to some people's playstyle or vision for their characters more or less than to others, but that's why there are other powers listed in the books.

 

[Markn]

Rain of Steel works extremely well with Come & Get It. We allow the fighter to move the creatures and this combo comes off as very Defender-y. It pulls a number of creatures next to him, often getting the squishees away from a bad guy that was beating on them.

By no means is this combo broken, but when used properly can easily turn the tide of a fight allowing us to "reset the board" by focusing on a particular bad guy to get him down, or allow us to move to move to a tactically better location without taking further damage.

As for what bonuses we use, we treat it as an attack power with a melee weapon and allow those bonuses.

 

[keterys]

Monsters take damage, then have a choice between making one attack and staying taking damage at the start of its next turn or make one attack and moving, not taking damage.

The monster has a choice between making one attack or moving, and moving triggers a challenge or OA.

Neither decision is truly affected by Rain of Steel because the monster will take the damage based on the fighter's actions. If the fighter chooses to be next to the monster, then the monster will take damage. There are actually cases where it will be to the monster's advantage to stay put because the fighter will have an incentive not to remain in that square.

One of them will be subject to a combat challenge attack if/when he attacks, which will be more of a threat because the monster will have already taken damage.

This is certainly true - which brings it back to the hunter's quarry theory of being a defender.

Take damage or move and not be able to hit ally at all = incentive to move.

Can you clarify this sentence?

Your version actually encourages the monster to stay adjacent to your allies because it increases the damage of opportunity attacks, which are triggered in this situation (melee combatants adjacent to your allies) by movement.

The example stance I gave does encourage the monsters to stay adjacent to the defender, most certainly, which allows the party to avoid them more easily, yes. Much like combat challenge and combat superiority. Being sticky is extremely desirable for defenders.

Moving the damage to the end just allows all of the enemies to make an attack before taking damage.

The fighter has control over who gets hit with Rain of Steel. It's decided by his action, not the monsters. The most they can do is try to spread out to minimize his ability to hit multiple. If RoS triggered at the end of their turn, then the decision would be theirs - shift or move to avoid it, triggering the attack, but avoiding the autodamage. Otherwise there's a lot less incentive to move away from the ally, they're going to get hit anyways.

Now, as I said, there's definitely incentive to _take down_ the fighter when he puts the stance up. It elevates his damage potential to that of the squishier targets he's defending, thereby giving them more reason to follow the mark... but again, hunter's quarry and twin strike _also_ gives monsters a reason to attack the ranger because he's outputting scary damage. They're also clearly striker powers, not defender powers.

They have the same incentive to move as they did before, it just lets the monsters do damage before the PC.

Have you played with many auras / zones that trigger end of turn instead of start? Trust me that the reaction to them is _very_ different. People are very proactive about getting out of end of turn effects, but not nearly as much so for start of turn.

And, since they get that one attack before taking damage, they stay up for one attack's worth of damage longer, letting them make more attacks on your allies.

Again, that's the striker solution to defense.

Some solos try to move away from Rain of Blows, if only to force the fighter into using a charge rather than one of his non-charge powers in combination with it.

Rain of Steel, not Rain of Blows. A Solo that can move far enough from the fighter without triggering an OA is in good shape, but it won't stop Rain of Steel from triggering. That incentive to move is unchanged - if RoS was not active, the solo should still make the fighter less effective by removing his ability to do stronger powers.

It's a defender power.

It's a power on a defender class, much like Dual Strike or Rain of Blows. That does not make it, or those other two powers, defendery. Fighters are very much sub-role Striker and this stance is a perfect example of one of those striker-like powers.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

The monster has a choice between making one attack or moving, and moving triggers a challenge or OA.

Monsters have a move and a standard action. They can both move and attack. Only one of them can be affected by challenge if they shift or attack.

Neither decision is truly affected by Rain of Steel because the monster will take the damage based on the fighter's actions. If the fighter chooses to be next to the monster, then the monster will take damage. There are actually cases where it will be to the monster's advantage to stay put because the fighter will have an incentive not to remain in that square.

Yes, it is. Sorry, but automatically taking damage if you're in a spot at the start of your next turn truly does determine if you stay in that spot the next turn.

This is certainly true - which brings it back to the hunter's quarry theory of being a defender.

Then your idea to add 1[W] damage to opportunity attacks and combat challenge attacks would be equally the "hunter's quarry approach" to being a defender. As would every feat that adds damage or accuracy to combat challenge or opportunity attacks. Which would include the fighter's weapon talent, the weapon focus and expertise feats, etc. The "hunter's quarry theory" is irrelevant and nonsensical, only useful for espousing that one way of being defender isn't valid, because it is like a striker.

Can you clarify this sentence?

Withgin the context of being related to the line you cut out, sure.

Option 1: Enemy takes -2 penalty to hit unless it moves away and can't attack the ally.

Option 2: Enemy takes damage unless it moves away and can't attack the ally.

If your goal is to encourage your enemy to move away and not attack your ally, the -2 to hit on the attack your ally in Option 1 is meaningless compared with not being able to attack at all. Option 2 is a real incentive for the enemy to move - not attacking to save its own skin.

The example stance I gave does encourage the monsters to stay adjacent to the defender, most certainly, which allows the party to avoid them more easily, yes. Much like combat challenge and combat superiority. Being sticky is extremely desirable for defenders.

It doesn't always make it easier. Sometimes the monster(s) and party member(s) will be in positions where the monster(s) have to move to allow the party member(s) to get away from them. Being sticky is (sometimes very) useful, but it isn't all there is to being a defender.

The fighter has control over who gets hit with Rain of Steel. It's decided by his action, not the monsters.

This is a good thing.

The most they can do is try to spread out to minimize his ability to hit multiple.

Again, you've imposed your will on them and limited their actions. A good thing.

If RoS triggered at the end of their turn, then the decision would be theirs - shift or move to avoid it, triggering the attack, but avoiding the autodamage.

Again, monsters can both attack the ally and move or shift in the same round.

Otherwise there's a lot less incentive to move away from the ally, they're going to get hit anyways.

There is a lot more incentive to move away from the ally when the damage is at the beginning. You've already been hit once and you're going to be hit a second time if you're still there next round. If the damage is at the end, the monster(s) can attack, stay and take the hit, and then make another attack the next round moving to avoid a second hit. They get two attacks for one round of Rain of Blows damage.

Now, as I said, there's definitely incentive to _take down_ the fighter when he puts the stance up. It elevates his damage potential to that of the squishier targets he's defending, thereby giving them more reason to follow the mark... but again, hunter's quarry and twin strike _also_ gives monsters a reason to attack the ranger because he's outputting scary damage. They're also clearly striker powers, not defender powers.

It's still a strawman. Doing more damage doesn't make something a striker ability or power. It's nonsense.

Have you played with many auras / zones that trigger end of turn instead of start? Trust me that the reaction to them is _very_ different. People are very proactive about getting out of end of turn effects, but not nearly as much so for start of turn.

I play enough that I know you're wrong. It isn't a matter of trust. Damage now and then more damage at the start of your next turn is more of an incentive to move than damage at the end of a turn that you have your entire next round of actions to avoid.

Again, that's the striker solution to defense.

Rain of Steel, not Rain of Blows. A Solo that can move far enough from the fighter without triggering an OA is in good shape, but it won't stop Rain of Steel from triggering. That incentive to move is unchanged - if RoS was not active, the solo should still make the fighter less effective by removing his ability to do stronger powers.

If your solo doesn't mind taking autodamage they can avoid by getting away from then yeah, it has no effect at all. Most monsters act differently when they're been wounded and are going to be a lot more wounded if they're in the same spot.

It's a power on a defender class, much like Dual Strike or Rain of Blows. That does not make it, or those other two powers, defendery. Fighters are very much sub-role Striker and this stance is a perfect example of one of those striker-like powers.

You can stick to that, but its defendery enough that both of your two attempts at making it more defendery made it demonstrably less so.

Karinsdad explained it perfectly clearly. I've shown the benefits of it for a defender as well. It's a good defender power. Taking it makes you a better defender in some situations, just like the other defender powers.

 

[keterys]

Monsters have a move and a standard action. They can both move and attack. Only one of them can be affected by challenge if they shift or attack.

Yep - it's the downside of the come and get it and rain of steel method. One of them shifts, and they can all shift.

Mind you, the tactic is still pretty awesome

Yes, it is. Sorry, but automatically taking damage if you're in a spot at the start of your next turn truly does determine if you stay in that spot the next turn.

If it kills you, it does. But you're not taking automatic damage if you're 'in a spot'. You take automatic damage if you're next to the fighter. There's a _very_ key difference there.

Then your idea to add 1[W] damage to opportunity attacks and combat challenge attacks would be equally the "hunter's quarry approach" to being a defender. As would every feat that adds damage or accuracy to combat challenge or opportunity attacks.

No, because the important difference is that they only apply when the target doesn't follow the mark / respect you as a defender. They're incentives to let the defense work. If something happens regardless of what choice you make with respect to the defender... it's a different case.

For example, a fighter using a 2-handed weapon has better challenge and opportunity attacks than one with a 1-handed weapon. There's a real choice there. A fighter who gets Wis to opportunity attacks is more likely to land them, making them more dangerous. In general, fighter opportunity attacks are scarier than a Cha paladins. These all help him defend.

Option 1: Enemy takes -2 penalty to hit unless it moves away and can't attack the ally. Option 2: Enemy takes damage unless it moves away and can't attack the ally.

Ah, I see. How about if the enemy just attacks the ally, then moves. Or shifts, then attacks the ally. In both those cases, Rain of Steel does nothing in either case while a -2 attack _does_. Further, the enemy is disinclined to shift in the first place to avoid damage, or attack then shift in the first place, to avoid damage.

Rain of Steel doesn't stop your allies from being attacked except by killing things. It's really good at that, though.

If your goal is to encourage your enemy to move away and not attack your ally, the -2 to hit on the attack your ally in Option 1 is meaningless compared with not being able to attack at all. Option 2 is a real incentive for the enemy to move - not attacking to save its own skin.

Once again, it already took the damage. Whether it moves or not does not change the fact that it took damage and is not the deciding factor whether it takes damage in the future. Again, that's up to the fighter in who he chooses to be adjacent to.

It doesn't always make it easier. Sometimes the monster(s) and party member(s) will be in positions where the monster(s) have to move to allow the party member(s) to get away from them. Being sticky is (sometimes very) useful, but it isn't all there is to being a defender.

Of course not - you also want to deter their ability to attack your allies, raise your ability to withstand their attacks, and rescue your allies when possible.

Except in the facet of 'hey, they died', Rain of Steel does none of these things. Again, it's really great at 'hey, they died' though. I like the power, I use the power, but compared to something like Pinning Smash that locks an enemy down, it's not very defendery.

Again, you've imposed your will on them and limited their actions. A good thing.

You didn't limit their ability to attack your friends, however. You're doing damage, possibly in area like ways they want to avoid. Striker, Controller, sure. Defender, no.

Again, monsters can both attack the ally and move or shift in the same round.

This statement has no bearing on the one to which you responded.

There is a lot more incentive to move away from the ally when the damage is at the beginning. You've already been hit once and you're going to be hit a second time if you're still there next round. If the damage is at the end, the monster(s) can attack, stay and take the hit, and then make another attack the next round moving to avoid a second hit.

If Rain of Steel triggered at the end of the round, it would be a much weaker power, yes. But it would encourage movement more, because it would be in the monster's hands to be able to avoid it.

They get two attacks for one round of Rain of Blows damage.

Psst. Rain of Blows is a different power.

It's still a strawman. Doing more damage doesn't make something a striker ability or power. It's nonsense.

It's not nonsense, but I'll move on.

I play enough that I know you're wrong. It isn't a matter of trust. Damage now and then more damage at the start of your next turn is more of an incentive to move than damage at the end of a turn that you have your entire next round of actions to avoid.

Once again, _moving does not protect you from taking the damage_. The fighter will just move back next to you, and you will just take the damage again.

If your solo doesn't mind taking autodamage they can avoid by getting away from then yeah, it has no effect at all. Most monsters act differently when they're been wounded and are going to be a lot more wounded if they're in the same spot.

And again, except even more wrong because at least a non-solo has a greater chance the fighter will choose to attack someone else for some reason.

Rain of Steel doesn't do what you think it does. It's extremely powerful and I'll freely admit that it's more powerful than both examples I gave, no doubt. But that doesn't make it have the salient characteristics of a power that improve your ability to defend.

It completely and totally improves your ability to kick ass, and kicking ass will kill your enemies and make the fight easier. There's a reason I have it on my fighter.

Then again, I also have Armor of Agathys on my warlock because it deals autodamage to everyone I stand next to...

 

[keterys]

Let's look at a few quick examples... in the following fight pictures, the monster is the hexagon with the horned skull and the fighter is the dwarf with the blue cross.

In the first example, the creature starts its turn and takes Rain of Steel damage. If it wants to, it can shift away (triggering combat challenge) and still attack the yellow dwarf. Or it can just attack green or yellow from where it's standing. Or just attack the fighter. On the defender's turn, he will move up next to him and the monster will again take damage at the start of its turn.

Result: It took Rain of Steel damage regardless of whether it chose to move or not. It took Rain of Steel damage regardless of whether it attacked the fighter or not.

In the second example, it takes RoS damage when it starts its turn. It can now shift and attack either green or yellow without ending its turn next to the defender, but the defender can still move up to it on his turn, and it will still take Rain of Steel damage at the start of its next turn whether it moves or not.

Result: Same.

In the third example, it takes RoS damage when it starts its turn. It can't shift anywhere to get out of the RoS damage while still melee-ing yellow or green... but if it does so, it still takes RoS at the start of its next turn and it _still_ takes a combat challenge attack if it shifts or attacks someone else, so it still might as well just attack whoever it wants because RoS doesn't affect the decision.

Result: Same.

In the fourth example, yellow is trapped in a corner and there are two enemies so the fighter might possibly not have them marked. If he does, however, there is no spaces into which they can shift this turn that will allow them to avoid both being hit by RoS next turn. They both take RoS when they start their turn, of course. The guy on the left can't shift anywhere that will help him not take RoS, so he might as well just stay where is and beat on anyone he wants. The guy on the right could shift in such a way that he could avoid RoS in _two_ turns (or possibly allowing the guy on the left to avoid it in two turns), after getting combat challenge attacked twice and RoS attacked twice, and allowing yellow to escape... so most likely he should _also_ just do whatever makes the most tactical sense because there's not much he can do about being hit by RoS.

Result: The fighter can finally use RoS to encourage a monster to move, but only by forcing them to split up far enough that he can no longer keep one locked down, ensuring that at least one is freely attacking his allies. If it's tactically sound, it's still in the monster's best interest to attack whoever they want because it's the fighter's choice who he hits with RoS, they can't choose to avoid it.

 

[keterys]

If there is some configuration of map and/or baddies that will help you best illustrate your point, let me know, I'd be happy to toss up some images.

I avoided the 'fighter is surrounded by guys who then all move off and attack his allies' example, cause it was work to setup, but can do if desired.

 

[fuzzlewump]

This power can potentially be very "defendery."

Enemies already don't want to be in melee with the fighter: proving that Rain of Steel makes them not want to be in melee more doesn't mean anything unless you can prove that that is the deciding factor between dumbly sticking to the fighter for no reason or bypassing him and accepting punishment. Bypassing the fighter is something the enemies always want to do, and something they will be punished for, whether Rain of Steel is activated or not.

One reason, normally, to bypass the fighter is because he does not do as much damage as the striker types, but he's sticky and so it's hard to get to those glass canons. Rain of Steel makes the fighter into a canon of his own, therefore making him a good target to take out, especially with ranged attacks. Thus, Rain of Steel could make him stickier, and so could be considered defendery.

If Rain of Steel makes enemies bite OA's and Combat Challenge attacks, then that just makes the power even better really.