How do we WANT magic to work (Forked Thread: ... medieval war...)

[Starfox]

Forked from: How the heck did medieval war work? And other rambling questions.

1) We get magical tech, ranging from the spells tailors use on certain projects to do a seam, up to and including analogs of the guns, tanks, airplanes, the Manhattan Project & nuclear bomb, Project Habakkuk & Pykrete, and a necromantic Final Solution.

2) It is scientific magic- you get clued into the rules by which the magic was discovered and why it works...or doesn't. You even get to see some of the magical experimentation, with failures and successes.

Is scientific magic how we want magic to be in our games. I know one of my players definitely wants this; he detests the Sorcerer because it doesn't use Int and the implication that a sorcerer doesn't really understand what he is doing. Personally, I like it quite a lot - the wizard does magic, the sorcerer IS magic.

Views?

 

[LostSoul]

I personally like it when magic is a transgression of moral values held by the society in which it is performed.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I say this a lot..."It depends."

Personally, I don't think they're incompatible.

I like 3.X's dichotomy between the academician Wizard who studies the rules of magic and carefully learns or even constructs the spells he uses in contrast to "the Natural" Sorcerer who just does what he does because he can.

I don't think that the use of Cha instead of Int means the Sorc (as a class) doesn't know what he's doing, just that he doesn't need to know in order to function. A high-Int Sorc would be VERY aware of the nature of his powers. OTOH, a Sorc who is an absolute idiot might not even question why he can do things others can't.

Think of it this way: the Wizard is like the difference between a musician who trains for years and years at his chosen instrument; the Sorc looks at the instrument, says "Wow, cool!" and starts to play identifiable music in just a few minutes. (And yes, both kinds really do exist.)

My main complaint about the Sorcerer is that IM(not so)HO, it should have been more like the Spellfire Channeler PrCl- someone who is a conduit for raw magic as opposed to a caster of spells, possibly with rules for using Spellcraft for shaping raw magic into spells on the fly (and with some kind of Vitality point system as well).

When I made that comment about Turtledove's world, I meant that because it was scientific magic, it would be easy for gamers (on either side of the screen) to formulate ways of incorporating his ideas into almost any RPG.

A piece of fiction without visible and consistent rules of magic is MUCH harder to model in a game.

 

[steenan]

I like both scientific and mysterious magic - but it needs to be consequently one or another, not both mixed or both present in the same world.

If the magic is mysterious, it is available only for few - and it is the center of their lives. It should be powerful, but dangerous and unpredictable. It may be "understood", but rather in mystical than scientific way. This kind of magic is great for the story, as it closely follows the magic of legends and mythology, but isn't appreciated by some players - those who don't really like the risk, preferring a full control their characters' fate.

If the magic is scientific, it should follow rules and patterns. It also works the other way (and that is much rarer in RPGs, as it is hard to balance) - whatever satisfies those rules should be doable by magic. Scientific magic may be researched, spells may be modified or combined. It is either available to anyone willing and bright enough to learn it, or dependent on observable criteria. It is good for worlds with a lot of low-level, everyday magic and for games with strong tactical or exploratory themes. If done well, it is very fun to use, but requires a lot of system mastery, creativity or both.

 

[LostSoul]

If one goes with the idea that magic is scientific, then I like my games to be sci-fi: to take that scientific idea and have it comment on our lives in the here and now.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I like both scientific and mysterious magic - but it needs to be consequently one or another, not both mixed or both present in the same world.

I don't agree. (Surprise!)

Scientific magic is like Newtonian Physics. The rules may be simple and well defined, or still in the process of being discovered, but they seem to be quite rational.

Mysterious magic is like Quantum Physics. Its weird & wonderful (spooky action at a distance, anyone?) and while it has rules, it seems to make a mockery of some of the rules of regular magic...possibly because it doesn't obey the same rules at all, or possibly because it just isn't understood as fully as the "normal" magic.

 

[EroGaki]

I want both!!

I think there is room for both scientific and mysterious magic in a game world. I would view scientific magic has civilized, human (or humanoid) magic; magic spells would be things we have figured out and utilized with a fair bit of predictability, hence a fireball spell is always a 20ft burst (unless modified with metamagic, of course).

On the other side of things is the mysterious magic; linked to primal, mystical forces that run unchecked in the campaign, this magic is uncontrolled (by mankind, anyway), and responsible for all sorts of mysterious things that cannot be explained: rivers that flow uphill, floating castles, healing springs, deadly magical viruses, etc. All people can do is scratch their heads and suffer through it, like the weather. Not all magic effects in the D&D world should be based of of a spell; there should be room for a little mystery.

I would prefer sorcerers to be more mysterious, instead of being wizard mimics, but what can you do?

 

[Rechan]

What's this "We" stuff?

I know what I like. But I know that everyone wants different things.

For instance, in the OP's quote, magic is treated with an eye for modernism; magic is either TECHNOLOGY or SCIENCE. What about magic being MAGIC, with mystery, sympathetic powers, and more metaphorical? For instance voodoo dolls, mucking around in dreams, changing the very nature of individuals' being, true names, etc? Being able to see the "True Desire" within someone's heart, being able to gaze into their soul and see what kind of person they are (beyond simple alignment), or stealing someone's innocence (literally).

So, here's my question: what can we all settle for?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

3.X has a dualistic arcane magic system, more if you add in splatbooks (ToM, MoI, etc.). HERO and M&M can model any kind of magic you want. Other systems have only a single form of magic.

Personally, I'll settle for whatever the system I'm playing allows, as long as the GM is running a good game.

 

[EroGaki]

3.X has a dualistic arcane magic system, more if you add in splatbooks (ToM, MoI, etc.). HERO and M&M can model any kind of magic you want. Other systems have only a single form of magic.

Personally, I'll settle for whatever the system I'm playing allows, as long as the GM is running a good game.

Agreed.