WoW and 4e - where's the beef?

[Doug McCrae]

1. All classes have lots of powers.
2. All classes are simple to begin with, increasing in complexity as the game progresses. This is really a feature of good gaming, not just WoW, but crpgs may well have provided the inspiration.
3. Most class powers are combat related. I don't think this came from WoW though, hack and slash has always been the default mode of play in D&D.
4. Magic items can be disenchanted.
5. Magic items have levels.
6. Monsters have levels.
7. Phased monster fights, via the bloodied condition.
8. Elite and solo monsters. They're even called 'elite' in WoW. WoW lacks minions however.
9. Stickier tanks. Though the mechanism that provides the stickiness is unlike WoW's.
10. Rogues are deadly cuisinarts. Of course 4e and WoW both got this from the same source - 3e.
11. The names of the class roles. These are taken from City of Heroes. So videogame-y but not WoW. Roles themselves have always been in D&D. Duh, it's a class-based system.
12. Better class balance. I don't think 4e took this from WoW, it's just a feature all good games should have. 4e and WoW are both good games.
13. More interesting combat. Again, a feature of good games in general, not an idea stolen from WoW.
14. More monstrous looking PC races. This comes, not from WoW, but from modern fantasy. And has a long tradition in D&D going all the way back to Chainmail.

In some areas 4e resembles WoW less than previous editions -
1. Reduced Xmas tree.
2. Dedicated healer no longer required.
3. No more buffs.
4. Gnomes de-emphasised and non-tinker.

 

[Doug McCrae]

2. Many of the class powers carry with them a WoW-like mechanic: Cool down times. Perhaps it was not intentional on the part of Wizards, but it is there. Encounter powers can only be used once per encounter, and are replenished after 5 minutes of rest, thus giving these abilities a 5 minute cool down. Many powers in WoW are similar, being useful only in a single fight (unless you are in a BG, or something really long).

D&D has always sort of had cooldowns - Vancian magic.

The mechanism for WoW cooldowns is rather different from D&D encounter powers though. Cooldown times vary greatly, from 6 seconds to days, and there is no need to avoid combat for a time period, the cds regenerate no matter what you are doing. For instance a WoW power with a 5 min cd could potentially be used twice in a boss fight.

I definitely don't see encounter powers as a WoW-ism. WoW has no concept of the encounter.

 

[Leatherhead]

I definitely don't see encounter powers as a WoW-ism. WoW has no concept of the encounter.

That's not quite true. WoW has several powers that cannot be used while "in combat." Some of those are intended to start combat (charge or ambush), and some of them are intended to reduce downtime between combats (eating or calling your mount).

 

[Doug McCrae]

If you look hard enough, you can find similarities between two things that, while they have something in common, are not alike. "4e is just like Anime" because it has super-powered characters with wuxia named powers. "4e is just like Exalted" because there are effects that last all encounter/scene, and everyone has magical powers. "4e is just like M:tG" because of the symbols/colors, and the use of Cards (Power cards, quest cards). "4e is just like a boardgame" because it's so focused on square based movement. "4e is just like furries" because there are Dragonborn, which are anthropomorphic dragons with breasts. "4e is just like your mom" because (whatever).

Totally agree. You know some kind of criticism is being made, but the language is so vague it's hard to tell what. And if you go to the trouble of getting the guy to explain, 90% of the time it turns out he's just deeply confused. About everything.

Back before the 4e books were out, one of the common messageboard criticism was that 4e looked so "anime". This spawned a big long thread where someone said, "So, where's the anime?" No solid examples were found, but the thread concluded it was just more a general feeling or impression without straight parallels.

I remember that thread, it was about 3e art wasn't it? Hussar is the hero of ENWorld.

By the way I actually found some anime (in the sense of Oriental influence) in a 4e product yesterday. It's on page 150 of Secrets of the Grave, a J-Horror inspired image of a Ring/Grudge style crawling female ghost with scary hair. It's the first I've found.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Well, I think there are a few statements that people assume are being made when someone says "4e is like WoW":

1. "4e is the SAME as Wow" (almost always accompanied by: "and that means 4e sux)

2. "4e is more like WoW than 3e" (which is definitely true in some ways, and is not true in others)

3. "4e has some elements in common with WoW" (and that may be a good or bad thing)

4. "4e drew upon some elements in WoW in order to find new, useful and popular ways of using powers/abilities/design."


There is no question. 4e designers DID draw upon their knowledge of WoW. The real question that seems to matter is whether or not that is a bad thing and whether or not they "overdid it". That is a matter of opinion, as with any other game design. WHERE an element of a game came from is really irrelevant. WHETHER it makes the game better or worse is what matters, and that can be both objective and subjective (good mathematical balance being more objective and whether it is fun being more subjective).


From:
Slashdot | The D&D Designers Answer Your Questions

D&D and WOW by halivar:
It appears (to me, at least), that many of the new rules-changes mirror popular MMO's like WOW. How much influence do the designers derive from video games; and, to the extent that D&D 4th resembles WOW, is this a conscious effort to reach the MMO-generation of gamers with table-top role-play?

WotC:
Just as the design teams of most computer games draw on their experiences with Dungeons & Dragons and other tabletop games, we look to other games for inspiration and innovation. Many of us in RPG R&D play or have played MMOs and other computer games. Some of the lessons we learned about gameplay on those platforms have helped us craft a better tabletop RPG, both for current D&D players and for potential new players who either haven't yet tried D&D or haven't found previous iterations of the game to their liking.

 

[malraux]

If I had to say what genre 4e drew the most from outside of PnP RPGs, I would point to CCGs/TCGs. Powers are pretty equivalent to cards, end up being tapped to use, etc. Heck, WotC even owns a CCG line that I hear is pretty popular.

On roles: I don't see this as a WoW thing as much as a general trend to metadata in everything. Pretty clearly 4e could have been written almost identically excepting talk about roles, and the play experience would be almost identical. The roles are labeled because they are pretty obvious. This also helps groups have flexibility. Now, instead of being locked into the class of cleric or fighter, you at least can pull from any of the leader or defender classes. But all of this is an outgrowth of the design intent being more forthright, which is a trend almost everywhere.

Balance: 4e classes are not balanced against each other. How do you balance marking vs extra damage? As near as I can tell, 4e classes are only balanced against others within the same role. But that's a good thing, and a logical game design goal. Clearly having one class be signifcantly better at a role than another would be a bad thing.

Personally, I think the problem with the claims that DnD is derivative of WoW is this: it implies that the designers blindly copied stuff from WoW, regardless of the underlying merits of the choice. Roles are actually a pretty decent design choice, regardless of who first came up with the idea.

 

[Hereticus]

[D][/D]
Seriously, modern games have features like "zooming". Little issues here... But it is very annoying if you can't fit the distances on your physical game table.

If you have your characters rub pepper in their eyes, then you won't have to worry about them seeing anything that "you can't fit the distances on your physical game table".

What can be seen is potentially part of any encounter. There are some very simple ways to deal with distances greater than what your map has.

 

[Greg K]

It comes down to what others have mentioned before. 4e READS like your typical guide for a videgame but ironically, I'm almost positive that the 4e designers mentioned they used the M:TG style guide for writing and M:TG is way older than most videogames people are familiar with.

Mearls loves Halo 2 according to a blog entry. He even discussed the Halo 2 damage system in his WOTC design test as seen in the following excerpt from a WOTC Design and Development article dated 0/7/2005 in which they shared Mike's design test answers

" 7. Describe a game mechanic (from a game other than a roleplaying game) that you think is good, and explain why you think it's good.

Mike Mearls: I love mechanics that emphasize the fun parts of a game while pushing the dull parts to the background. Halo 2's damage system removes the typical health meter found in first person shooters. Instead, each player has a shield that soaks damage. Once the shield is gone, additional shots damage a target based on where they hit. When the shields recharge, all body damage heals.

The time needed to recharge is long enough that you are unlikely to heal in the middle of a firefight, but it readies you for the next area of a map once you defeat your current foes. This emphasizes the fun parts of Halo – running around, blasting away at enemies – without forcing players to spend time in search of healing or power-ups. Such a search isn't necessarily fun, and it puts the game on hold until the player is in a good shape to continue.

In multiplayer games, this mechanic encourages good tactics. An ambush or clever use of terrain gives a big edge, since in most cases two opponents meet with full shields. If it takes 10 shots to defeat an opponent, whoever fires first, or whoever makes an opponent miss more often, gains a big advantage."

 

[Doug McCrae]

If you have your characters rub pepper in their eyes

I prefer to LARP that.

 

[hazel monday]

I've never played WOW more than once because I don't like it. It doesn't appeal to me.


I've never played 4.0 more than once because I don't like it. It doesn't appeal to me.


So in that sense, WOW is like 4.0.