WoW and 4e - where's the beef?

[Doug McCrae]

On roles: I don't see this as a WoW thing as much as a general trend to metadata in everything.

4e sux. It's too XML-y.

 

[Khairn]

Rather than specifically WOW, I do feel that a number of 4E game features have an MMORPG feel to it. Which is only natural given some of the design goals of 4E and that MMO's are the most popular form of "fantasy" entertainment today. Many of the most common similarities have already been brought up so I won't repeat them. As Aberzanzorax said earlier, its not a question of "if" 4E was influenced by and has incorporated MMO elements in the rules.

The real question that seems to matter is whether or not that is a bad thing and whether or not they "overdid it".

I still remember my first time GM'ing 4E and the wizard in the party calling out "Hotkey #3!" everytime he used Magic Missle.

 

[Bumbles]

"4e is just like your mom" because (whatever).

I disagree completely. 4E is coherent, consistent, and otherwise nothing like my mother.

But maybe your mother is totally different from mine. IOW, not insane.

 

[Wombat]

I can't answer from my own experience, having only watched some other people playing WOW and having played 4e for only four sessions (and then dropped it).

I have three friends who are heavily into WOW, one of whom is a table top gamer as well. The table topper (who has played many MMORPGs due to rarely having close-at-hand game buddies) looked at 4e and compared the two prior to play; after playing it (with a different group than my own), his opinion was pretty much "If I want to play WoW, at least I want it in real time, not crawl time".

The other two (WoWers only) have watched some of my groups rpgs, including our attempt at 4e. One of them saw a lot of points of comparison; the other saw almost none.

So survey says ... the jury is still out.

 

[mmu1]

This thread shows, once again, what is wrong with most of these kinds of discussions.

"Is 4E like WoW?" is not a "yes" or "no" question. It's really disingenuous to make those the only options on your poll, and then, when people say "yes", to try to prove to them they're wrong by describing all the ways you can think of in which WoW and 4E are different.

No one in their right mind is claiming that 4E and WoW are the same game. On the other hand, tons of people have read the rules or tried the game and found that, more than any other edition of D&D before, 4E reminds them of a MMORPG, and "Word of Warcraft" is just shorthand for that. Starting these nitpicky "4E is NOT WOW!" discussions is just a way to try to dismiss the actual argument at hand.

 

[Fanaelialae]

1) Balance: In WotC's quest to have all classes and races balance with each other in all combat scenarios, many of the races and classes seem a bit sterile, missing much of the uniqueness they had in previous editions.

IMO, this is more a example of modern game design priorities than an overt resemblance between 4e and WoW. One example would be OWoD vs NWoD (Vampire). In the older edition Celerity (super speed) granted extra actions, whereas in the new edition it increases defenses and movement speed (but does not grant extra actions). The former is arguably a better simulation of super speed, but the latter is far more balanced (many people, myself included, considered old Celerity horribly broken).

Additionally, WoW puts serious importance upon class vs class balance (because a fair portion of the game is player vs player). 4e, on the other hand, focuses on balance within roles and with respect to the DM's side of the game (monsters, skill challenges, etc). Both, games do hold balance as an item of importance, but the direction they approach that balance from is quite different.

2) Range: No spell has a range greater than 100 feet, which is less than medium range in the previous edition. It is my opinion that range was limited by design so that all action could fit on a computer monitor.

IMO, the reason behind this characteristic is essentially the same as the first (balance).

In 3.x I saw a halfling ranger build (with dog animal companion mount) that had the DM pulling his hair out in frustration. I don't remember exactly how he did it (some nasty combo of prestige class and feats I think) but he was able to put out a punishing amount of damage from an extreme distance (often retaining total cover).

In a similar vein, a wizard with the fly spell didn't even need much else to nuke an area from space.

Hence, it really comes back to balance (and fun). As a DM, I really don't want to have to arm every primitive band of orcs with greatbows just to deal with an EXTREME ranged PC, nor do I want to have to set every adventure in a tiny dungeon just to "foil" them (neither fun for the DM nor the player). I don't want the rest of the party standing around bored because the wizard decided that instead of a grand battle a fireball storm from orbit would do just as well. Keeping ranges (relatively) short keeps ranged characters from becoming a "problem" and allows the DM to challenge these PCs with a lot less effort.

More power to you if this was never a problem for you, but it was definitely a problem for some.

There is definitely some surface resemblance between 4e and WoW, and I don't doubt that the 4e designers borrowed and adapted ideas from WoW. However, as someone who played plenty of WoW and still plays 4e, they are two very distinct games.

 

[avin]

Playing Wow since before AQ gates opened.

The only I compare to Wow is the power cooldowns. And maybe some art.

 

[Hereticus]

If you have your characters rub pepper in their eyes...

I prefer to LARP that.

Hmmm, I may choose to have root canal instead.

 

[Zil]

I played 4E before I ever played WoW (by a few months). Before playing WoW, I thought that 4E felt like a blend of miniatures gaming mixed with video game elements and some of the old traditional D&D tropes sprinkled on top. Once I finally played WoW the connection with video games, and WoW in particular, was even more apparent. Heck, some of my WoW character "powers" or "spells" felt like they had been lifted directly from 4E (although I realize that the connection actually ran the other way).

 

[malraux]

I played 4E before I ever played WoW (by a few months). Before playing WoW, I thought that 4E felt like a blend of miniatures gaming mixed with video game elements and some of the old traditional D&D tropes sprinkled on top. Once I finally played WoW the connection with video games, and WoW in particular, was even more apparent. Heck, some of my WoW character "powers" or "spells" felt like they had been lifted directly from 4E (although I realize that the connection actually ran the other way).

For example? Do hp, leveling, wearing armor, having classes with customizable options also feel like they were lifted directly?