Revised grapple rules, with Hackable Limbs

[EricNoah]

Wrote this up for my game group, thought I would share. Hope the formatting works ok...

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Grapple: Many D&D monsters have an Improved Grab ability that allows them to start a grapple after hitting with a melee attack and suffering no attack of opportunity. Larger monsters have a very great advantage over smaller PCs. This combines to make a very lethal situation for PCs. They hit, they grapple, the PC is out of action for the rest of combat, in grave peril, and can do nothing about it.

As someone who has been stuck in “unbeatable” grapples before, with no options available to me or to my allies to get me out, I know how frustrating this can be. When I play D&D I see scenes in my head, and in these scenes I see heroes hacking at tentacles to chop them off or render them useless. There’s no D&D rule to accommodate that very likely scenario. So here are my proposed changes to the rules (some affect possible PC actions, most affect the DM’s side of the screen during prep and play).

1) Adjust Monster Grapple Stats: Many monsters with the Improved Grab ability really don’t deserve to have it. In my mind, Improved Grab is for creatures with tentacle-like appendages, and with reach greater than 5’. In addition, I want to lessen the advantage that large size has over the Grapple score (and lessen the penalty small size has). So with these thoughts in mind, I change creature stats as follows:

a. Reduce large creature grapple scores, improve small creature grapple scores. Using the Pathfinder* “combat maneuver bonus” adjustments for size instead of the “special size modifier” from the DMG, it works like this (apply these as changes to any Monster Manual/SRD Grapple value to get a more Pathfinder-like value):

i. Diminutive Creatures: add 8 to MM Grapple to get Pathfinder Grapple
ii. Tiny Creatures: add 6 to Grapple
iii. Small Creatures: add 3 to Grapple
iv. Large Creatures: subtract 3 from Grapple
v. Huge Creatures: subtract 6 from Grapple
vi. Gargantuan Creatures: subtract 8 from Grapple
​

b. Remove Improved Grab from creatures that don’t deserve it. Tentacled creatures with 10’ or greater reach are the typical monster that will have Improved Grab; the rest will need to grapple with the normal rules (drawing attacks of opportunity and not getting a damaging attack in just prior to the grapple).
c. Apply a Hackable Limbs weakness to any creature who does have Improved Grab.

i. A Hackable Limb has an AC and hit points.

1. AC = the creature’s AC (if not yet grappling) or Flat-Footed AC (if grappling; even if the attacking creatures is taking -20 on check to avoid being flat-footed, the grappling limb itself is flat-footed), plus a size modifier with the tentacle being 2 sizes smaller than the creature. (A Large creature has Small tentacles, and thus gains +2 size modifier to AC).
2. Hit points = 1/10 to 1/5 of the monster’s normal total hit points, plus additional hp equal to ½ the monster’s natural armor bonus. DM decides how “thick” the tentacles are based on how many tentacles the creature has and other factors. The hit points for a Hackable Limb are separate from the creature’s hit points.​

ii. The only attacks that can “hack” a Hackable Limb are slashing weapons or directed energy damage (an energy spell with an attack roll, for example). You can crit on attacks vs. Hackable Limbs, even against creatures that are normally immune to critical hit damage (constructs, plants).
iii. The damage against a Hackable Limb must exceed the limb’s hit points in one blow (you don’t get to keep hitting the same spot) in order to destroy it. Exception: if you are the grappled target and your arms are free and you have an appropriate attack form, you can continue to hit the same spot over and over again. You will need to keep track of the hit points.
iv. When a Hackable Limb is destroyed (takes more hp in damage than it has, in one blow, from an appropriate damage source), the creature can no longer attack or grapple with that limb and any grappled target is immediately freed and falls prone in an open square adjacent to the creature.​

2) Adjust Grapple procedures:

a. On the initial check to see if the creature attempting to start a grapple is successful, compare the opposed grapple checks. If the defender fails by 10 or more, his arms are pinned. If he fails by 9 or less, his arms are free. (This may then allow the grappled victim to possibly hack off the limbs of the grappling creature himself).​

3) Adjust Grapple tactics for monsters:

a. The vast majority of creatures will use the option to take a -20 on grapple checks made to maintain a grapple in order to avoid becoming flat-footed (one of the drawbacks of engaging in a grapple). Some mindless creatures (plant creatures, constructs) might not have such self-preservation instincts.​

4) Grapple and Tentacle Hacking options for PCs:

a. If you have Improved Sunder, you do an extra +2d6 damage on attacks to Hack a Tentacle.
b. If the grappling creature is flat-footed, you can apply sneak attack damage to your Tentacle Hacking attempts.
c. If you have Escape Artist skill ranks, you can use that skill to escape grapples as normal. Each round you use Escape Artist to attempt to escape, if you fail by 9 or less your arms are freed. In addition, if you are grappled and your arms are pinned during the initial grapple, you can immediately make an Escape Artist roll vs. that grapple check to get your arms free.
d. Spellcasting is still difficult while grappled and concentration checks are required as normal. If your arms are free, you can cast spells with M and S components; if they are pinned, you can only cast spells that have only V components.​

*Pathfinder is Pazio Publishing’s D&D 3.5 variant. http://paizo.com/pathfinder

 

[Sylrae]

Just a couple thoughts.

1. You have dimunitive creatures getting a +8 to grapple, so dimunitive creatures are 8 times better at holding on to someone once theyre attached? that doesnt make sense.
I could see making them harder to hit initially, for the grapple, but they sbhouldnt be better at grappling.

2. Youre thinking giant tentacle monsters, I agree that making them better at grapple makes sense, but unless theyre all spiky, the damage before the grapple doesnt make sense, and what about the obvious real life example of a creature with improved grapple: Canines. Think of a large dog. If it bites you, it'll do damage, and it'll be hard as to get off of you.

I like your hackable limbs Idea though. but again, not so much with somethign like a dog, which is how I always pictured the damage dealing attack grapple combo.

 

[EricNoah]

That's +8 to their grapple score as presented in the MM (so for example a creature with a MM Grapple of -20 would instead have a -12). It's just my note about how to adjust the MM value. Pathfinder essentially does the same thing with its size modifier (the size isn't such a big factor).

 

[Sylrae]

okay. What about the dog grapple (which is what I'm pretty sure the improved grapple on damage is supposed to be doing, not the tentacles, or why would it be on damage?)

 

[Celebrim]

Adjust Monster Grapple Stats: Many monsters with the Improved Grab ability really don’t deserve to have it. In my mind, Improved Grab is for creatures with tentacle-like appendages, and with reach greater than 5’.

I would go even further than that. Improved Grab is only for creatures that are inherently 'sticky'. Any sort of grab which involved gripping and wrapping around the target is just a normal grab. After all, humans may not be able to compete with animals in most things, but they have far better than average ability to grab, grip, and grapple. With most creatures given 'improved grab' you could on the same basis argue people have 'improved grab'.

Another thing I've consider is simply getting rid of the absolute advantage of 'improved grab' and simply making it a dodge bonus to your AC when resisting AoO incurred when making a grapple. I hate absolute advantages, because they provoke creating things like 'Improved Grab Resistance: You can make AoO's even against things with Improved Grab'.

In addition, I want to lessen the advantage that large size has over the Grapple score (and lessen the penalty small size has).

I agree, but I went about it in a different way. I ruled that a strength bonus did not apply to a touch attack.

If you wanted to reduce the grapple bonus, my thought is that when something grapples something more than one size smaller than itself, it can only apply half of its strength bonus to the grapple check - its just hard to get a grip on something. Might be harder to calculate on the fly though, so it might be worth just going with the flat adjustment you suggest. I'd be curious to see some comparisons between the two in practical cases.

c. Apply a Hackable Limbs weakness to any creature who does have Improved Grab...

How old school.

Of course, this just provokes thoughts of generalized called shot rules.

Adjust Grapple procedures:

a. On the initial check to see if the creature attempting to start a grapple is successful, compare the opposed grapple checks. If the defender fails by 10 or more, his arms are pinned. If he fails by 9 or less, his arms are free. (This may then allow the grappled victim to possibly hack off the limbs of the grappling creature himself).​

I like the thought but I'm not sure I like the implementation. It's going to be very hard for people to grapple someone without getting a full attack with a dagger and little else for their trouble.