Mary Sue- Not sure I understand

[GMforPowergamers]

With whom he's in a monogamous relationship for the decades of the Realms' published 'present'.

What's the sarcasm for? You can easily verify everything I wrote if you care to look.

what about the picture of him and the drow chick in Volo;s guide to all things magical...at the time I was told they were on again off again lovers...

and

As of the end of "Elminster's Daughter" the information that Elminster has several daughters was made known. Besides Narnra Shalace two others are made known, one of them is Laspeera of the war wizards and the other is none other than the Dowager Queen Filfaeril of Cormyr. He has no known wife, but retains contact with several previous lovers, including the goddess Mystra

bolded by me...

 

[On Puget Sound]

Dagny Taggart in Atlas Shrugged is often given as an example. One key ingredient of a Mary Sue is, "things that would be illegal, immoral or evil if done by a normal character are moral, justified and either legal or overlooked when Mary Sue does them."

 

[Al'Kelhar]

So, Mary Sue = Chuck Norris?

 

[Midnight Dawns]

Thanks for all of the responses and links. I especially like the litmus test.

 

[Krensky]

The problem is that once removed from fan fiction, it largely becomes meaningless jargon. It's often used in this form be cynical critics to take a typical heroic character and say the suck. I've seen Horatio Hornblower and James Bond called Mary Sues. It's usually a way of disparaging a character who the critic doesn't like because they aren't flawed enough or are too good. It's usually used in a hateful manner since the implication isn't just that the author's a bad writer, but he or she is pathetic looser as well.

Elminster's no more a Mary Sue then Kirk is.

 

[Faraer]

For example; Conan would never be a Mary Sue because HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE THAT AWESOME!

That's the thing: Conan is a Mary Sue according to the ridiculously generalized vaguely-veiled-insult-to-the-author use of the term, and so are most protagonists of heroic fiction.

what about the picture of him and the drow chick in Volo;s guide to all things magical...at the time I was told they were on again off again lovers...

You're thinking of Susprina Arkhenneld in FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark, one of his ex-apprentices. Realmslore doesn't say if they were once lovers one way or the other. But it's interesting that you 'were told' they were, and where the idea might have come from.

bolded by me...

What about it? It would be odd if someone hadn't had at least several lovers over hundreds of years! The Wikipedia entry mentions it because it's an aspect of Elminster that 'everyone knows', but the sources don't bear it out. (There are promiscuous characters in Realmslore -- I'm looking at you, Torm -- but El ain't one of them.)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The problem is that once removed from fan fiction, it largely becomes meaningless jargon. It's often used in this form be cynical critics to take a typical heroic character and say the suck. I've seen Horatio Hornblower and James Bond called Mary Sues. It's usually a way of disparaging a character who the critic doesn't like because they aren't flawed enough or are too good. It's usually used in a hateful manner since the implication isn't just that the author's a bad writer, but he or she is pathetic looser as well.

Elminster's no more a Mary Sue then Kirk is.

see this whole thing has one major issue...Kirk is the hero of his story/universe...Elminster is the hero sometimes...other tiems he is a supporting character that gets to mayr sue level...

If I picked up a book set in the new star trek movie area and everyone was falling over backwards for kirk who only shows up in 2 chapters...I would agree...HOWEVER that is not the case.

Batman, Kirk, Harminie, Sherlock Homes, House MD, and many other characters boarder on sue hood, becuse they are too good. Infact that is where opions come into play. How ever When I pick up Blue bettle comics, and the main character (with alien artafact powers) spends the whole issue getting his butt kicked by the bad guy, then batman comes in and wraps it up in 1 pannel...it is batman being used as a mary sue...

It's usually a way of disparaging a character who the critic doesn't like because they aren't flawed enough or are too good. It's usually used in a hateful manner since the implication isn't just that the author's a bad writer, but he or she is pathetic looser as well.

yea becuse I sooo see ed greenwood as a pathetic looser..

Maybe you missed the part were I respect his world, but not his characters... He is an OK writer in my mind (not great, but far from pathetic) BUT his character IS a mary sue by every strech of the word...

He is good at everything (Look at his classes...he was a fighter, a theif an wizard a prestess (yes he was a girl for a while). He is one of the most powerful wizards in the world, he ignores the over god telling him not to do something (((El sue is training midnight to be the new mystra (yes this mortal wizard is a better teacher then the other gods) and AO tells him to lay off she has to learn on her own...what does El Sue do...he keeps teaching))).
He has had intmate knowlage of many women over the years...so much for the nerdy wizard sterotype he is a player...
He IS ed in the game world...infact Ed use to walk around conventions and holloween parties as elminster...
He inteacts with ed in the story by breaking the 4th wall and being a packers fan and drinking eds type of beer...

what level does that not fit suehood???

 

[Faraer]

How ever When I pick up Blue bettle comics, and the main character (with alien artafact powers) spends the whole issue getting his butt kicked by the bad guy, then batman comes in and wraps it up in 1 pannel...it is batman being used as a mary sue...

No, it's Batman as Deus Ex Machina. The characteristic of 'powerful intervention' doesn't constitute any coherent sense of 'Mary Sue' I've ever read.

He IS ed in the game world...infact Ed use to walk around conventions and holloween parties as elminster...

He was told to do so by TSR, a fact that's well known by now. You haven't the least reason to think he's Ed in the Realms other than that it's what you heard. If you respect Ed as you say, please don't call him a liar.

He inteacts with ed in the story by breaking the 4th wall and being a packers fan and drinking eds type of beer...

I don't know where you got this idea from, but have you noticed how you stick to it irrespective of how many times I dispel your mistaken or misconceived 'evidence' (including the bit I didn't quote, which we discussed before on Wizards.com)?

Neither is it breaking the fourth wall, since the very premise of the Forgotten Realms -- the source of its name, the hidden motivator of many of its events -- is that it's one of many worlds in a Moorcockian multiverse, once broadly linked to Earth.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Elminster is textbook Mary Sue. Or Marty Stu, Gary Stu, whatever. Some of the fiction and setting material makes this fairly clear, but when you also consider some of the noteworthy cases of the writer's. . . 'tendencies' IRL, well now. Textbook it is.

 

[Krensky]

see this whole thing has one major issue...Kirk is the hero of his story/universe...Elminster is the hero sometimes...other tiems he is a supporting character that gets to mayr sue level...

Star Trek is an ensemble. Kirk, Spock, and Bones are all the hero.

If I picked up a book set in the new star trek movie area and everyone was falling over backwards for kirk who only shows up in 2 chapters...I would agree...HOWEVER that is not the case.

So Kirk is a Mary Sue in Generations?

Batman, Kirk, Harminie, Sherlock Homes, House MD, and many other characters boarder on sue hood, becuse they are too good.

They're not too good. They're heroes. They're only too good compared to the soulless post-modern trash that academic literature passes off as protagonists.

Infact that is where opions come into play. How ever When I pick up Blue bettle comics, and the main character (with alien artafact powers) spends the whole issue getting his butt kicked by the bad guy, then batman comes in and wraps it up in 1 pannel...it is batman being used as a mary sue...

No, he's being used as a deus ex machina. Mary Sue has no real meaning outside of fanfiction, despite what TV Tropes poster say.

yea becuse I sooo see ed greenwood as a pathetic looser..

Maybe you missed the part were I respect his world, but not his characters... He is an OK writer in my mind (not great, but far from pathetic) BUT his character IS a mary sue by every strech of the word...

You can't have it both ways. Accusing an author of writing a Mary Sue is tantamount to calling him a looser writing his own wish fulfillment. At least that's what it means in fanfiction, which is the only place the term has any real meaning. Since Ed Greenwood developed the character, it's not fan fiction. So calli9ng Elminster a Mary Sue is nonsensical and insulting to Mr. Greenwood.

He is good at everything (Look at his classes...he was a fighter, a theif an wizard a prestess (yes he was a girl for a while). He is one of the most powerful wizards in the world, he ignores the over god telling him not to do something (((El sue is training midnight to be the new mystra (yes this mortal wizard is a better teacher then the other gods) and AO tells him to lay off she has to learn on her own...what does El Sue do...he keeps teaching))).
He has had intmate knowlage of many women over the years...so much for the nerdy wizard sterotype he is a player...
He IS ed in the game world...infact Ed use to walk around conventions and holloween parties as elminster...
He inteacts with ed in the story by breaking the 4th wall and being a packers fan and drinking eds type of beer...

what level does that not fit suehood???

Not a fanfiction.

I get it, you don't like Elminster for whatever reason and you choose to express it by insulting Ed Greenwood.

Honestly Elminster seems no worse then most of the classical heroes (Heracles, Persius, etc) or Batman or Kirk, or any other hero.