Mary Sue- Not sure I understand

[GMforPowergamers]

No, it's a type of third person limited narration. Technically, the fourth wall concept only applies to theater (and by extension cinema, radioplays, and teleplays). In a novel, breaking the fourth wall would involve the character revealing that he knows he's fictional, living in a fictional world.

I think we are spliting hairs here...

To my understanding, Elminster shows up, tells 'Ed' some stories, drinks his beer, and leaves. At least that was the vibe I got in the FR products that mentioned it.

yea, that is the same impression I got...infact if you know where it was said you would help me out alot..

Calling a work a Mary Sue is insulting and implies you consider the author a hack and a looser. If that is not you opinion of Mr. Greenwood, find another pejorative.

The character fits mary sue...the writere changes...ever notice that the character shows up in books and games and rpg stuff...it all adds up

That's what Mary Sue means. Calling Elminster a Mary Sue carries with it the implication that you think Greenwood is a pathetic looser. If you don't feel that way, find a useful critical phrase to describe Elminster.

Sorry but you are wrong...I say nothing of the writer...it is the character...infact...

Wait, were we discussing Greenwood as an author or a DM?

we are talking about Elminster the character...in novels (some by Mr Greenwood some not) in vedio games, in RPG guids...

Elminster is not his fav character...fine I don't care
Elminster is written by how many authers (Including appearnces in mods and games)?
Elminster the character created and owned by TSR that was sold to WotC that Ed greenwood had a major hand in...but not the only hand in...

 

[Obryn]

I don't know where you got this idea from, but have you noticed how you stick to it irrespective of how many times I dispel your mistaken or misconceived 'evidence' (including the bit I didn't quote, which we discussed before on Wizards.com)?

Have you, though?

I mean, I see a lot of assertions. But right now it looks like you and the others are basically going "Nuh-UH!" "Uh-HUH!" back and forth.

-O

 

[Obryn]

Calling a work a Mary Sue is insulting and implies you consider the author a hack and a looser. If that is not you opinion of Mr. Greenwood, find another pejorative.

OK, we can either talk about Elminster as separate from Ed Greenwood, or we can talk about them as inextricably linked. Personally, I'd rather keep them separate, to move away from this "HOW DARE YOU INSULT ED GREENWOOD!" vibe.

In short, the term "Mary Sue" might not mean the same thing on ENWorld in regards to authorial wish-fulfillment, as they would on a fanfic site.

I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't care a lick what Ed Greenwood thinks about Elminster, whether or not he's fantasy wish fulfillment, or whatever. I'd rather talk about the character, how he's been handled by all authors, and his effects on the setting. Which, IMO, have nothing whatsoever to do with the actual person, Ed Greenwood.

That's a pure distraction, and if we can't have a discussion about a character without devolving into questions about whether or not those discussions are insulting to the author of that character, I think this thread is going to go even further south, more quickly. IMO, YMMV, etc.

-O

 

[Faraer]

I mean, I see a lot of assertions. But right now it looks like you and the others are basically going "Nuh-UH!" "Uh-HUH!" back and forth.

Like I said to GMforPowergamers, I didn't think the straight points of Realmslore (or what Ed has said) were in contention. I could footnote them all, but thought it would seem pedantic. Anything in particular you're thinking of?

That's a pure distraction, and if we can't have a discussion about a character without devolving into questions about whether or not those discussions are insulting to the author of that character, I think this thread is going to go even further south, more quickly.

Quite, that would be a much more civilized discussion, but the term 'Mary Sue' does imply a certain kind of relationship between the author and the character, doesn't it? Some people are definitely asserting one, even if others might be using it more vaguely.

 

[Krensky]

I think we are spliting hairs here...

Not really. They're two very different things.

yea, that is the same impression I got...infact if you know where it was said you would help me out alot..

I seem to recall it in the Realmspace guide. The conceit that the author is relating stories from a third person shows up a number of times. It a cross between a third person limited point of view and an epistolary narration. There's some unreliable narrator there too, since Elminster lies constantly and is bug house insane.

The character fits mary sue...the writere changes...ever notice that the character shows up in books and games and rpg stuff...it all adds up

Then he can't be a Mary Sue as part of it that the character is a stand in and wish fulfillment for the author. Unless you're saying all of those authors had the same wish.

Sorry but you are wrong...I say nothing of the writer...it is the character...infact...

You said Elminster was a Mary Sue due to Greenwood's writing a few times. Calling an author's character a Mary Sue isn an insult and implies you think he's a looser.

we are talking about Elminster the character...in novels (some by Mr Greenwood some not) in vedio games, in RPG guids...

Elminster is not his fav character...fine I don't care
Elminster is written by how many authers (Including appearnces in mods and games)?
Elminster the character created and owned by TSR that was sold to WotC that Ed greenwood had a major hand in...but not the only hand in...

The he's no more a Mary Sue then Superman or Heracles. It doesn't preclude him from being poorly characterized or employed though. That doesn't make him a Mary Sue, however.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Then he can't be a Mary Sue as part of it that the character is a stand in and wish fulfillment for the author. Unless you're saying all of those authors had the same wish.

ok I must admit this is more a joke then anything....but comeon, people working int he RPG industry who faantasize about being powerful wizards...my bet would be 90+% of teh writers...readers...players have at one point or another...

The he's no more a Mary Sue then Superman or Heracles. It doesn't preclude him from being poorly characterized or employed though. That doesn't make him a Mary Sue, however.

so what should I call a character that is often protrayed by many sources as the over powered DMPC style Mary sue???

 

[Krensky]

That's a pure distraction, and if we can't have a discussion about a character without devolving into questions about whether or not those discussions are insulting to the author of that character, I think this thread is going to go even further south, more quickly. IMO, YMMV, etc.

-O

Then perhaps avoiding insulting jargon of a field only tangentially related to the topic at hand would be a good first step.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Then perhaps avoiding insulting jargon of a field only tangentially related to the topic at hand would be a good first step.

ok how about the character shows traits of sue hood when written by multi writersss (I will edit this if you can give me a better name for the type of character)

I will then relist two diffrent (one mine) lists of why it is felt this way...please note that I removed any mention of ed by name...

He is good at everything (Look at his classes...he was a fighter, a theif an wizard a prestess (yes he was a girl for a while). He is one of the most powerful wizards in the world, he ignores the over god telling him not to do something (((El sue is training midnight to be the new mystra (yes this mortal wizard is a better teacher then the other gods) and AO tells him to lay off she has to learn on her own...what does El Sue do...he keeps teaching))).
He has had intmate knowlage of many women over the years...so much for the nerdy wizard sterotype he is a player...
He inteacts with ed in the story by breaking the 4th wall and being a packers fan and drinking beer with his writer...

• As statted, he's ludicrously powerful and adept. He is a little bit of everything, and (despite weak explanations why he doesn't just 'port in and take out every major bad guy on the planet) he can take nearly anything on paper.
• Mystra is an ex-lover. Regardless of his other bedroom conquests, that's... quite a claim. And he's a Chosen, as well.
• All of the women he's been with are described as having power and beauty on a goddess-like scale. I guess they've got to match his power to maintain some level of equity, but he's not much of a looker. I think I'd like Elminster more if his partner appeared more age-appropriate, but I guess grandmothers would look odd in silky revealing robes...
• He can outwit or out-sass gods and archdevils alike, to say nothing of poor incompetent super-villains like Manshoon and Sammaster.
• He's everywhere. I hated seeing him the first time while playing Baldur's Gate, and I *really* hated seeing him the 3rd or 4th time (...where, like most portrayals of Elminster, he pops up to say something mysterious, implying that he knows so much more than you, and then vanishes without really doing anything meaninfgul). He's just... smug. And irritating.
• The constant positioning of Elminster as the uber-wizard, not just of the Realms, but of all D&D worlds. The old Wizards Three articles in Dragon usually had Elminster portrayed as more knowledgeable (or at least more laid-back and in control) than Mordenkainen, and Dalamar came off as a punk-@ss kid by comparison.

 

[Krensky]

so what should I call a character that is often protrayed by many sources as the over powered DMPC style Mary sue???

It would depend on the usage, but:

Poorly characterized.
Overly idealized.
Overly powerful.
Unbelievable.
Stock character.

Based on the complaint I've seen most often:

Deus ex machina.
Ostentatious.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It would depend on the usage, but:

Poorly characterized.
Overly idealized.
Overly powerful.

Based on the complaint I've seen most often:

Deus ex machina.
Ostentatious.

ok with the exception of the last one (witch i really don't know) It seams to line up with sue hood...

While the term is generally limited to fan-created characters, and its most common usage today occurs within the fan fiction community or in reference to fan fiction, original characters in role-playing games or literary canon are also sometimes criticized as being "Mary Sues" or "canon Sues," if they dominate the spotlight or are too unrealistic or unlikely in other ways. One example of this is Wesley Crusher from Star Trek: The Next Generation.

how ever I did find God Mode sue...a variant with no repercussions ont eh writer...
godmode Sue @TV tropes
in fact:

•Elminster of Shadowdale, full stop. Probably the most notable is that he gets to bed the goddess of magic, as well as numerous other hot super-powered babes.
◦He's still alive in 4th Edition, which means that not even the death of his patron goddess, the magic Weave going bonkers, the resulting Spellplague, and the chaos resulting from the deaths of other heroes and gods could kill him.
■However, take solace that he's no longer orders of magnitude more powerful than pretty much everything else, having been metaphysically kicked in the balls with the death of his goddess. He's powerful, but a group of dedicated epic characters can take him down, now that his deific plot armour no longer works.

so is this better??