Mary Sue- Not sure I understand

[Korgoth]

I think the most important thing about "Mary Sues" is that they ruin a setting by their presence. Conan, for example, doesn't ruin Hyboria, he enlivens it.

In view of which, "Mary Sues" should probably be renamed "Elminsters" just to avoid confusion.

Look, I bought Drow of the Underdark and I saw the picture of the nekkid drow babe lounging in Elminster's hot tub. With that "Hi, my name is Ivanna Havitoff" and Elminster all looking like Hef and so on. I know what that was all about.

Also, try using Google Image for Ed Greenwood (NOTE: I keep Safesearch ON, so don't come crying if you foolishly don't use it). Dude. It's Elminister. Sorry.

The point is, Elminster is the unkillable, ultrasmooth, ice man, chick magnet, playah, rock star, don't need Viagra, pimpalicious ultra-uber-arch-mega-infini-mage tom-jones-meets-johnny-cash bearer of the Invulnerable Codpiece of MechaGodzilla who beats up Chuck Norris, pities Mr. T and teaches Pat Morita how to do Karate. Any shred of integrity that Forgotten Realms could have as a setting collapses under and implodes into the infinite mass of his goddess-banging script immunity.

If Elminster isn't a Mary Sue, then there are no such things and they should not even be discussed.

 

[jensun]

Elminster from Forgotten Realms is a Mary Sue. Partly because he's very knowledgeable, wise and powerful. Partly because he has sex with lots of hot magic elven babes. And mostly because he's a stand-in for the author, Ed Greenwood.

Its creepier when you realise that one of those women he is boning (the Symbul) is someone he raised from being a child after Mystra burned up their mother giving birth to the Seven Sisters of Super Awesomeness.

 

[fanboy2000]

See, I was under the impression that a true Mary Sue can't be the protagonist of his own story; A Mary Sue is someone who either one-ups the main character OR is overall better than an ensemble cast. For example; Conan would never be a Mary Sue because HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE THAT AWESOME! Now, if I introduced a Barbarian-chieftain into Conan mythos who was a better fighter, lover, tactician,and leader than Conan, HE'D be the Mary Sue, since Conan's supposed to be the hero.

I think you're right. The original concept was that fanfic authors were creating characters who were supposedly way better than the main characters of whatever popular fictional universe they were writing in. So Ensign Mary Sue was supposedly a supporting character, but out did all the crew and singled-handedly saved the day.

If such a character was in a story set in the author's own universe, the character wouldn't be a Mary Sue because the character would simply be the protagonist.

 

[Faraer]

Its creepier when you realise that one of those women he is boning (the Symbul) is someone he raised from being a child after Mystra burned up their mother giving birth to the Seven Sisters of Super Awesomeness.

No, the Simbul was raised by Oraumae of Rashemen (The Seven Sisters p. 8). Why do you think you were so sure of this mistaken point?

 

[S'mon]

There is an issue of bad writing which is not necessarily about Mary Sue. Conan is a fine character, but if you're playing a Conan game your PCs are the heroes, and if the GM has Conan show up and solve the adventure, that is a Bad Thing. The same goes for Elminster showing up to rescue the PCs in a Forgotten Realms game, or Luke saving the PCs in a Star Wars game. It inculcates a "why do we even bother?" attitude.

 

[S'mon]

I think you're right. The original concept was that fanfic authors were creating characters who were supposedly way better than the main characters of whatever popular fictional universe they were writing in. So Ensign Mary Sue was supposedly a supporting character, but out did all the crew and singled-handedly saved the day.

If such a character was in a story set in the author's own universe, the character wouldn't be a Mary Sue because the character would simply be the protagonist.

Yes, I agree. There is an issue where one character in an ensemble cast is mis-written to become vastly Better At Everything than the others. In old series Trek fanfic this is most likely to be Spock.

Elminster is an annoying self-insertion character who steals the limelight from the PCs, who are supposed to be the heroes. Since Ed created the Realms, El cannot meet the strict definition of Mary Sue, however (leaving aside those crossover chats with Mordenkainen).

 

[vagabundo]

Here is the original tale that spawned the name:

A TREKKIE'S TALE

By Paula Smith



"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her.
"Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?"
"Captain! I am not that kind of girl!"
"You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us."
Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?"
"The Captain told me to."
"Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind."

Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies , Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise.

Oh Elminister, I was just reading The Drow of the Underdark (2e) last night and cringing at the introduction: it read more like Ed's sexual wish fulfilment or a soft porn novel. He is a dirty old man (Elminister I mean), that drow woman was one of his apprentices.

 

[Zaister]

Here is the original tale that spawned the name

It should be noted that this "story" was written as a satire to spoof this kind of fiction that was abundant in fanfic at the time.

 

[vagabundo]

It should be noted that this "story" was written as a satire to spoof this kind of fiction that was abundant in fanfic at the time.

True, I should have mentioned that.

 

[Faraer]

Elminster is an annoying self-insertion character who steals the limelight from the PCs, who are supposed to be the heroes.

I really don't understand why you give credence to the self-insertion thing.

What are you basing the 'steals the limelight' claim on? Naturally he's active in the fiction he's in (most of which, once more, wouldn't exist if TSR hadn't wanted him to write it). I can't think of any of it where he steals limelight from a PC-like adventuring band. In the more than 100 Realms game adventures, Elminster does something significant in about 3 of them, and in most he isn't mentioned.

Like with the nudity, you evidently got the impression you got. But the weight of Realmslore doesn't remotely support it.